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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics today mark Vernon joins me

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his new book a secret history of

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Christianity here's some extended clips

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from the show who is Mark Vernon and why

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do you feel nervous when you're called

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the Christian yeah it's because the word

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Christian means so many different things

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it's also a big part of my own story and

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I used to be an Anglican priest and I

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left and I went through this kind of

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great searching phased agnostic phase

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that's when I discovered Socrates you

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know because you know one thing about

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Socrates is that he went around asking

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people questions

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but it's the kind of stuff that drives

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me nuts about the Christian worldview

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and how it gets overlaid on top of these

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important discussions the pivotal moment

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of human evolution was two millennia ago

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what hold on time out who says that

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according to WHO it's like this that is

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indefensible from our scientific

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understanding of history

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III think there is a kind of story that

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can be told and can actually be made to

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stack up as well it's not just like a

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Christian triumphalist claim and that

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the individual with a kind of microcosm

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that then can begin to feel it it

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mirrors the macrocosm and so knows the

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macrocosm in a different way a different

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kind of consciousness something

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crystallized around these centuries

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which we call you know the first century

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of AD for example something does seem to

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have evolved around them and and shaped

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not just the Western world and the

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eastern world was well can we bring back

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some knowledge from people who claimed

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to have entered these extended

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consciousness rooms yeah I mean I think

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that our task now is to relearn what

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Mystics of old have told us about and

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and it's a sort of in a way it's a

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democratizing process I think because

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you know a lot of mystics before and you

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know they were rather kind of a leap

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monks and nuns you know they went up

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into the Himalayan mountains for years

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on end or they lived in enclosed orders

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in Europe and that what we're in now is

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a much more general kind of spiritual

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revolution where all sorts of people are

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practicing these techniques but also

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bringing other experience to it as well

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whether it be thinking about end to the

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ease whether it be thinking about

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psychedelics my whole range of expertise

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for experimentation is going on here's

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my hunch at this point there are these

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multiple extended consciousness realms

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and they are the greater reality and we

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will always be limited from our reality

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because it's unless

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reality but maybe just to throw in some

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thoughts from what I've got from Dante's

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Divine Comedy because he goes through

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these you know three realms broadly

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speaking hell purgatory and paradise and

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in Harold was lost of trickster stuff

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going on

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there's actual sort of demons that he

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encounters but even the souls that he

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encounters down there he learns that

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actually they're telling him one thing

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but they're fooling him in another way

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as well and it's it's as he learns to

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discern that and that he's able then to

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move in the story to the next level

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which is the purgatorial level which is

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when is where he works much more on his

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own the purification if you like of his

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own and capacities to see and to

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understand and to discern and then when

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that is sort of good enough and he's

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able to move into the paradise but it

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doesn't stop in paradise either going up

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through the different spheres of

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paradise for Dante is a constant process

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of letting go what he thought had been

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the case before seeing it was a pale

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reflection just the kind of shadow or a

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working model of things in order to rise

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[Music]

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today I'm delighted to welcome mark

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Vernon back to skeptic oh he's got a new

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book coming out in a couple months a

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secret history of Christianity and he

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was nice enough to send me a review copy

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now the book

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you can't go order it right now but she

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can go pre-order it on Amazon which is

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nice but the great thing about Mark and

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the great thing about this book is man

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he's just has a way of talking about

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these topics that are important to me in

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a way that I just enjoy having a

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conversation about so he's written a

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bunch of other books he's been on the

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show before and I thought this was a

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great opportunity to have him back and

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talk about some of the topics that we're

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dealing with here in skeptic oh and get

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his take in particular his take relative

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to this research that he's done on a

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secret history of Christianity I should

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also mention that mark has a PhD in

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ancient philosophy and I was just asking

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him who's that over his shoulder and who

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did you tell me it is Socrates it is

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Socrates so the Greek great thinkers

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will pop up again and again probably in

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this dialogue and in the book mark is

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also the co-host of the Sheldrick vernon

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dialogues which is just outstanding

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we've talked about before on this show

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with of course featuring Rupert

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Sheldrake he's also a professional

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psychotherapist and along with working

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with individual clients there in London

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he also serves his community with this

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great volunteer work in that area too

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and that's certainly not only you're to

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be commended for but I think it just

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rounds out the person that people will

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know you to be and find you to be in

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terms of truly this person who's engaged

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with larger spiritual community and what

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that means so mark welcome back to

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skeptical thanks so much for joining me

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yeah well thanks Alex it's really nice

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to be back I very much enjoy your show

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so it's great to contribute well it is a

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contribution you know the last time you

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were on I titled this show is

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Christianity worth saving so that will

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just give people a sense for how you're

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willing to go there and that's one of

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the things I really appreciate is that

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we can have these kind of discussions

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much-needed discussions even though they

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don't necessarily jive with where we're

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coming from it's just great to get

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intelligent people to contribute to this

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dialogue that I'm trying to have so

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awesome awesome stuff let's see where to

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start you know where I thought we'd

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start is I love this quote for you and

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the larger question is who is Mark

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Vernon and then why do you feel nervous

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when you're called the Christian it's

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because the word Christian means so many

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different things and I'm not sure if I

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want to be labeled with the thing that

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I'm being labeled with when the work of

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Christian pops up but it's also a big

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part of my own story you know I used to

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be an Anglican priest in the Church of

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England that is and at my left and I

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went through this kind of great

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searching phase the agnostic phase

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that's when I discovered Socrates you

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know because you know one thing about

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Socrates is that he went around asking

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people questions how do you know what

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friendship is had you know what courage

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is and so on the psychotherapy was

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really important too because that was a

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big intensive period of personal work

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and I got that very much from Plato as

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well actually that who you are as a

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person and the work you're doing on

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yourself as an individual completely

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shapes what you can perceive and see of

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the world around you as well as your own

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inner life you know knowledge and virtue

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and desire and will in the ancient world

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these things were all completely knitted

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together and so I learned that very much

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from that process and you know I've

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written this book now a secret history

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of Christianity is partly to try and put

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Christianity sort of to bed does it work

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for me once and for all who knows

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whether it would have done it but you

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it's really Christianity isn't it I mean

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you often talk about you've entered a

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local Christianity and that's what

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mystical Christianity and there's in

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this country that this very kind of

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established state kind of Christianity

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as Christianity of the you know

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different parts of the world so what are

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you calling me when you're calling me a

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Christian I guess I think right well

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that would make anyone nervous

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especially the you know I also think

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it's interesting when you touched on the

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psychotherapy because in looking over

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your website it just kind of clicked for

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me that it would be interesting to sit

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across from you I think and engage in

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that kind of open forum where stuff is

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coming up for me to talk a little bit if

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you will about your philosophy about

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what that process is like for the people

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who enter that space with you why does

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it why does it work

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why don't you alluded to it but why does

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it work do you think well I guess it's

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because we are were creatures were

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beings that operate at many levels at

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the same time but I guess that

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particular when things go wrong in life

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or at least not as well as they might do

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we tend to get stuck at one particular

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level and maybe it's their most

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immediate the most literal the most

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empirical kind of level and people

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couldn't lose touch with different

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levels of themselves um it might be the

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levels that come out of their own

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personal past the developmental side you

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know make an obvious example it would be

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some kind of trauma that feels too much

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to live with and so get it gets blocked

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off but the trouble with that is that

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you're blocking yourself off from a part

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of your life as well so it causes

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problems it makes life your limited and

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but also the more transpersonal sites do

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I think that were spiritual beings

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whatever that might mean

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I mean somewhere or other so having

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better access to that too can also come

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in through psychotherapy and

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psychotherapy does it I think it's

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increasingly think of it as a sort of

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hypnosis in the sense

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the kind of where I worked normally

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anyway is that someone comes at the same

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time each free to the same room

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very little externally changes and it

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just allows a kind of shift of

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consciousness a dropping of

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consciousness so that more immediate

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level becomes less important and that in

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itself allows other levels that could

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come to the surface over time I love

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that expanded view and I think it's

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awesome and it feeds into kind of one of

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the main points I obviously want to

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bring to the table right from the

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beginning is this whole idea of

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consciousness because the topic has

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already touched us a couple of times and

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it's addressed directly in your book I

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mean the subtitle of your book refers to

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the evolution of consciousness so I

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wanted to take one step back from that

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and maybe just ask you what is your

276
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understanding of consciousness the

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nature of consciousness this is

278
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obviously a very prescient topic to to

279
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me on skeptic oh also in the Sheldrick

280
00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:04,150
Virna dialogues that you guys do you

281
00:12:08,550 --> 00:12:06,310
know Rupert Sheldrake has been one of

282
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the leaders within the scientific

283
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community to raise his hand and say hey

284
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guys I think our lack of understanding

285
00:12:21,060 --> 00:12:16,750
justness may be getting in the way of

286
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what we're calling science so what is

287
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your understanding of the nature of

288
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consciousness at this point uses phrase

289
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the evolution of consciousness it really

290
00:12:38,250 --> 00:12:36,520
means the perception that we have of

291
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what it is to be human

292
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suppose our personal perception our

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sense of our relationship to others of

294
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section of our relationship to nature to

295
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the cosmos to the divine you know to the

296
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spiritual world and I'm drawing a lot on

297
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the ideas of a chap called Owen Barfield

298
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in the book who was one of the Oxford

299
00:13:01,710 --> 00:12:58,690
Inklings so he was a great friend with

300
00:13:03,420 --> 00:13:01,720
CS Lewis an JR told king and both Lewis

301
00:13:06,180 --> 00:13:03,430
and Tolkien said that Barfield had the

302
00:13:08,010 --> 00:13:06,190
best ideas about this subject

303
00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:08,020
but Lewisohn talking and no different

304
00:13:12,450 --> 00:13:10,510
ways were very great writers and so they

305
00:13:14,190 --> 00:13:12,460
were able to build it into their their

306
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writing and both fields a bit white

307
00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:15,790
blood as well but he's a bit more of a

308
00:13:20,390 --> 00:13:17,710
gritty writer and in some ways I'm

309
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:20,400
trying to open up his ideas in my book

310
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but his idea was that our modern

311
00:13:26,940 --> 00:13:24,940
consciousness in the sense of this

312
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modern sense of what how we feel who we

313
00:13:33,180 --> 00:13:30,520
feel we are how we perceived life has a

314
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kind of history and if it's changed it's

315
00:13:38,220 --> 00:13:35,080
evolved particularly over the last two

316
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or three thousand years and it's trying

317
00:13:42,090 --> 00:13:40,120
to understand something of that and

318
00:13:44,610 --> 00:13:42,100
particularly well the Christianity is

319
00:13:47,940 --> 00:13:44,620
played in that that I found very

320
00:13:51,870 --> 00:13:47,950
illuminating and I try to unpack that in

321
00:13:56,850 --> 00:13:51,880
the book well we are gonna unpack it

322
00:14:00,180 --> 00:13:56,860
here don't you worry because I have some

323
00:14:02,490 --> 00:14:00,190
questions issues with that but I want to

324
00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:02,500
get there kind of from a little bit of a

325
00:14:09,510 --> 00:14:06,310
roundabout way first off I think it's

326
00:14:11,340 --> 00:14:09,520
important that maybe you and I we're

327
00:14:13,230 --> 00:14:11,350
definitely in the same camp you know I

328
00:14:14,940 --> 00:14:13,240
consider maybe when we're going to talk

329
00:14:17,610 --> 00:14:14,950
about Christianity I may be in the loyal

330
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:17,620
opposition part of this thing where I am

331
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:19,690
so much in agreement and so appreciate

332
00:14:24,330 --> 00:14:22,210
the dialogue the conversation that

333
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:24,340
you're bringing which is much needed yet

334
00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:26,170
I have reservations about some of the

335
00:14:31,650 --> 00:14:28,560
points and I guess I'd start with this

336
00:14:34,740 --> 00:14:31,660
materialism is baloney as my friend dr.

337
00:14:37,710 --> 00:14:34,750
Bernardo Kastrup would say and I think

338
00:14:39,390 --> 00:14:37,720
it's important to pull this out and just

339
00:14:41,940 --> 00:14:39,400
pound it although I certainly do a lot

340
00:14:45,060 --> 00:14:41,950
of it is that we are enmeshed in a

341
00:14:47,460 --> 00:14:45,070
culture in a scientific culture that

342
00:14:49,829 --> 00:14:47,470
completely denies that consciousness

343
00:14:51,630 --> 00:14:49,839
even exists you know I just had an

344
00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:51,640
interview with the very excellent

345
00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:54,310
philosopher dr. Philip Goff was there in

346
00:14:59,010 --> 00:14:56,530
the UK and you may know him but he's

347
00:15:01,920 --> 00:14:59,020
been kind of trying to lead the charge

348
00:15:06,329 --> 00:15:01,930
and hey you know materialism really

349
00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:06,339
isn't so it isn't the way that it is but

350
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:07,510
when we started to have this

351
00:15:10,530 --> 00:15:08,560
conversation because you know

352
00:15:12,570 --> 00:15:10,540
neuroscience isn't really married to

353
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:12,580
this idea of materialism it isn't

354
00:15:16,590 --> 00:15:13,930
married to this you are a biological

355
00:15:18,670 --> 00:15:16,600
robot in a meaningless universe and I

356
00:15:20,769 --> 00:15:18,680
had to call him on it and say what

357
00:15:22,210 --> 00:15:20,779
neuroscience are you reading what part

358
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:22,220
of science are you reading and we

359
00:15:26,199 --> 00:15:24,170
actually pulled up the Wikipedia entry

360
00:15:28,059 --> 00:15:26,209
for neuroscience and he had to admit

361
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:28,069
yeah well I guess that is still the

362
00:15:32,619 --> 00:15:30,800
official position and it's not enough

363
00:15:35,199 --> 00:15:32,629
people are doing what my friend here

364
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:35,209
Bernardo Kastrup is doing is saying this

365
00:15:42,489 --> 00:15:39,290
is so intellectually ridiculous that we

366
00:15:43,569 --> 00:15:42,499
can't even fully comprehend how people

367
00:15:45,579 --> 00:15:43,579
who are supposed to be the leading

368
00:15:47,710 --> 00:15:45,589
science figures you know the Neil

369
00:15:49,540 --> 00:15:47,720
deGrasse Tyson and stuff like that when

370
00:15:51,579 --> 00:15:49,550
they're asked about consciousness they

371
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:51,589
say and I have the quote and I played it

372
00:15:55,210 --> 00:15:54,050
last time I suspect that we'll find it

373
00:15:58,509 --> 00:15:55,220
doesn't exist

374
00:16:00,699 --> 00:15:58,519
I mean how absurd is this to say we are

375
00:16:03,549 --> 00:16:00,709
my consciousness is connecting with your

376
00:16:07,090 --> 00:16:03,559
consciousness that is inescapable and

377
00:16:10,559 --> 00:16:07,100
yet we are a mesh in this scientific

378
00:16:14,410 --> 00:16:10,569
culture that is telling us that

379
00:16:18,429 --> 00:16:14,420
consciousness is an epiphenomena brain

380
00:16:20,619 --> 00:16:18,439
so two parts to that question I guess

381
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:20,629
how far do you feel like you need to

382
00:16:25,929 --> 00:16:22,910
distance yourself from that

383
00:16:30,189 --> 00:16:25,939
understanding of consciousness and then

384
00:16:32,169 --> 00:16:30,199
secondly why do you think that persists

385
00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:32,179
when you know Ruppert will tell you it's

386
00:16:37,210 --> 00:16:34,910
complete baloney all these other people

387
00:16:41,110 --> 00:16:37,220
tell you complete baloney why does it

388
00:16:42,790 --> 00:16:41,120
persist two-part question yeah well I've

389
00:16:46,030 --> 00:16:42,800
kind of with you and with Bernadette

390
00:16:48,340 --> 00:16:46,040
strip as well you know consciousness is

391
00:16:50,199 --> 00:16:48,350
the nearest thing to us if me if you get

392
00:16:52,090 --> 00:16:50,209
rid of the nearest thing to us then the

393
00:16:54,610 --> 00:16:52,100
rest of the world drops away as well

394
00:16:59,739 --> 00:16:54,620
it just seems bizarre and odd to me that

395
00:17:01,650 --> 00:16:59,749
that moves even be made but um barbar

396
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:01,660
field actually has a bit of an answer

397
00:17:07,389 --> 00:17:04,250
indirectly as to why we might find

398
00:17:10,299 --> 00:17:07,399
ourselves in this stage now and because

399
00:17:13,179 --> 00:17:10,309
his his sense of how consciousness in

400
00:17:16,689 --> 00:17:13,189
the sense of our perceptions how that

401
00:17:19,149 --> 00:17:16,699
evolves it's the go through cycles where

402
00:17:22,689 --> 00:17:19,159
we feel alienated from the world around

403
00:17:26,829 --> 00:17:22,699
us he thought that a cycle of alienation

404
00:17:29,139 --> 00:17:26,839
began in the period sometimes for what's

405
00:17:32,409 --> 00:17:29,149
known as the axial age you know from

406
00:17:34,239 --> 00:17:32,419
about 500 or so BC to around

407
00:17:36,609 --> 00:17:34,249
time of the emergence of Christianity

408
00:17:39,669 --> 00:17:36,619
and that was a kind of one sort of

409
00:17:41,739 --> 00:17:39,679
alienation but we've embarked on a new

410
00:17:44,259 --> 00:17:41,749
kind of alienation now

411
00:17:46,149 --> 00:17:44,269
which arises from the Scientific

412
00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:46,159
Revolution so-called the Enlightenment

413
00:17:49,450 --> 00:17:48,049
the Reformation if naturally as well I

414
00:17:54,070 --> 00:17:49,460
think these will all had a big impact

415
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:54,080
and whilst and that alienation causes us

416
00:17:59,529 --> 00:17:56,570
to feel disconnected from the world to

417
00:18:01,450 --> 00:17:59,539
such an extent that now we can do things

418
00:18:03,909 --> 00:18:01,460
that even a hundred years ago would have

419
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:03,919
been almost impossible to imagine and

420
00:18:08,409 --> 00:18:06,799
not just I think you know some people

421
00:18:09,789 --> 00:18:08,419
can go around saying that consciousness

422
00:18:11,799 --> 00:18:09,799
is an epic phenomenon doesn't maybe

423
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:11,809
doesn't even exist I think also the same

424
00:18:16,330 --> 00:18:14,570
about and the divine actually you know

425
00:18:19,330 --> 00:18:16,340
that it's only pretty recently really

426
00:18:21,310 --> 00:18:19,340
that full-blown atheism in the holistic

427
00:18:23,139 --> 00:18:21,320
sense has been possible you know

428
00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:23,149
Nietzsche famously Flags it up with

429
00:18:28,029 --> 00:18:25,730
their death of God but our field said

430
00:18:31,090 --> 00:18:28,039
there's a meaning to that as well which

431
00:18:34,239 --> 00:18:31,100
is that it causes us to withdraw into

432
00:18:35,769 --> 00:18:34,249
ourselves and to go for the struggle of

433
00:18:40,180 --> 00:18:35,779
trying to develop our own inferiority

434
00:18:43,659 --> 00:18:40,190
and it's so sort of upside of this in a

435
00:18:45,999 --> 00:18:43,669
way is the for example we nowadays value

436
00:18:47,919 --> 00:18:46,009
the individual perhaps more than any

437
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:47,929
other time in history you know men and

438
00:18:53,409 --> 00:18:49,970
women and all sorts of varieties of

439
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:53,419
individual people we now absolutely take

440
00:18:58,149 --> 00:18:55,730
it as wanted that sort of sovereignty of

441
00:19:00,639 --> 00:18:58,159
the individual and however we try and

442
00:19:03,970 --> 00:19:00,649
work that out that that weren't really I

443
00:19:06,669 --> 00:19:03,980
can go but it leaves us with the sense

444
00:19:08,919 --> 00:19:06,679
of detachment and so the sort of the

445
00:19:11,169 --> 00:19:08,929
third bit was the withdrawal does the

446
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:11,179
development of the interior life but

447
00:19:14,889 --> 00:19:13,129
then the third piece which Barfield felt

448
00:19:16,479 --> 00:19:14,899
we were beginning to embark on now and

449
00:19:18,789 --> 00:19:16,489
maybe the people like Kastrup and others

450
00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:18,799
are beginning to take us back in that

451
00:19:21,849 --> 00:19:19,609
direction

452
00:19:23,979 --> 00:19:21,859
it's a reconnection with the world

453
00:19:26,769 --> 00:19:23,989
around us but with the added advantage

454
00:19:28,599 --> 00:19:26,779
of our own inferiority which means that

455
00:19:31,060 --> 00:19:28,609
we can discern it that much better we

456
00:19:32,859 --> 00:19:31,070
can embark batted back into the world

457
00:19:35,139 --> 00:19:32,869
around us with with freewill with

458
00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:35,149
conscience and responsibility so it's

459
00:19:39,249 --> 00:19:37,129
the kind of spiral of alienation and

460
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:39,259
reconnection but that takes us upwards

461
00:19:45,070 --> 00:19:41,330
and it's part of our evolution part of

462
00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:45,080
our development so it's got a down side

463
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:46,370
and it can even

464
00:19:49,930 --> 00:19:47,690
become a kind of reductio ad absurdum

465
00:19:54,610 --> 00:19:49,940
like there's no consciousness that's all

466
00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:54,620
ah um overall Barfield and i think you

467
00:19:58,930 --> 00:19:56,510
can find signs in our culture now that

468
00:20:00,279 --> 00:19:58,940
maybe there's a kind of return that are

469
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:00,289
returned with difference and that

470
00:20:06,490 --> 00:20:03,890
difference is a kind of progressive kind

471
00:20:12,970 --> 00:20:06,500
of development I think if that makes any

472
00:20:15,549 --> 00:20:12,980
sense it doesn't it doesn't because and

473
00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:15,559
I gotta just kind of take off as if I

474
00:20:22,389 --> 00:20:18,529
had any kid gloves on but it's the kind

475
00:20:24,789 --> 00:20:22,399
of stuff that drives me nuts about the

476
00:20:28,779 --> 00:20:24,799
Christian worldview and how it gets

477
00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:28,789
overlaid on top of these important

478
00:20:32,769 --> 00:20:30,500
discussions we're trying to have about

479
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:32,779
what is the nature of consciousness what

480
00:20:36,820 --> 00:20:34,570
is the nature of this extended

481
00:20:38,350 --> 00:20:36,830
transcendental consciousness that Christ

482
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:38,360
consciousness is talking about the

483
00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:39,770
chapter in your book and we're gonna get

484
00:20:45,220 --> 00:20:42,230
to in a minute I mean here's the quote

485
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:45,230
you mentioned oh na Barfield who is the

486
00:20:49,450 --> 00:20:46,970
grandson but do you get the idea the

487
00:20:52,419 --> 00:20:49,460
experience of being alive evolves the

488
00:20:55,870 --> 00:20:52,429
pivotal moment of human evolution was

489
00:20:59,980 --> 00:20:55,880
two millennia ago what hold on timeout

490
00:21:02,980 --> 00:20:59,990
who says that according to WHO it's like

491
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:02,990
this that is indefensible from our

492
00:21:08,289 --> 00:21:06,130
scientific understanding of history like

493
00:21:10,269 --> 00:21:08,299
archaeology anthropology history books

494
00:21:12,370 --> 00:21:10,279
there we don't have any we can't point

495
00:21:14,529 --> 00:21:12,380
to two thousand years ago and say oh

496
00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:14,539
wait historically we have all this

497
00:21:18,820 --> 00:21:16,640
evidence that lines up that everything

498
00:21:20,380 --> 00:21:18,830
changed yet this is a thing you'll hear

499
00:21:21,909 --> 00:21:20,390
over and over again from Christians is

500
00:21:23,769 --> 00:21:21,919
that this was a pivotal point in history

501
00:21:26,529 --> 00:21:23,779
and then they breeze by it like it's

502
00:21:29,590 --> 00:21:26,539
true they's breeze by it like it's

503
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:29,600
somehow true historically or they allude

504
00:21:33,220 --> 00:21:31,130
to the fact that it's somehow true

505
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:33,230
spiritually and I challenge that too

506
00:21:38,190 --> 00:21:35,210
okay show me how the Buddha fits into

507
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:38,200
that show me how all the other great

508
00:21:43,299 --> 00:21:40,850
spiritual truths that have come from

509
00:21:45,850 --> 00:21:43,309
great spiritual minds before and after

510
00:21:47,710 --> 00:21:45,860
tell me how that fits in with this idea

511
00:21:49,690 --> 00:21:47,720
that this was this pivotal moment this

512
00:21:53,799 --> 00:21:49,700
moment we know almost nothing about

513
00:21:55,510 --> 00:21:53,809
historically why that was so pivotal and

514
00:21:59,649 --> 00:21:55,520
my guess my real frustration that you're

515
00:22:00,240 --> 00:21:59,659
hearing here is that it just slides off

516
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:00,250
the tongue

517
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:02,650
so easily for folks who have been

518
00:22:06,779 --> 00:22:04,720
indoctrinated into this Christian

519
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:06,789
worldview and are talking primarily to

520
00:22:11,399 --> 00:22:09,130
other Christians who just nod their head

521
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:11,409
and go along with it as if it's you know

522
00:22:18,690 --> 00:22:16,570
okay to say that kind of stuff this is

523
00:22:21,289 --> 00:22:18,700
unpacking and I do I hear what you're

524
00:22:31,649 --> 00:22:26,370
broadly speaking I dia is that evolution

525
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:31,659
is as Darwinian evolution is of where

526
00:22:35,789 --> 00:22:33,850
one part of the story

527
00:22:37,950 --> 00:22:35,799
it's the materialist part of the story

528
00:22:39,649 --> 00:22:37,960
if you like you know through natural

529
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:39,659
selection sexual selection all the other

530
00:22:45,299 --> 00:22:42,730
mechanisms that that are described

531
00:22:48,750 --> 00:22:45,309
increasingly by evolution science and

532
00:22:51,090 --> 00:22:48,760
but people like Barfield and and also he

533
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:51,100
was very influenced by other thinkers

534
00:22:58,260 --> 00:22:54,130
like Rudolf Steiner they've made the

535
00:23:01,049 --> 00:22:58,270
point that that's just a positivistic

536
00:23:03,990 --> 00:23:01,059
notion of evolution it's the kind of

537
00:23:06,270 --> 00:23:04,000
materialist notion of evolution and if

538
00:23:08,279 --> 00:23:06,280
we are conscious beings which we are if

539
00:23:10,010 --> 00:23:08,289
we're spiritual beings with capacities

540
00:23:12,810 --> 00:23:10,020
for extending consciousness which we are

541
00:23:14,460 --> 00:23:12,820
in a way the next piece of the

542
00:23:16,380 --> 00:23:14,470
evolutionary story that's going to come

543
00:23:18,930 --> 00:23:16,390
in it's going to have to build that in

544
00:23:21,779 --> 00:23:18,940
so for example I myself don't buy the

545
00:23:24,299 --> 00:23:21,789
kind of emergentist stories of evolution

546
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:24,309
that we started from a Big Bang which

547
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:25,570
was the work as it were a purely

548
00:23:30,539 --> 00:23:28,450
material and the through various degrees

549
00:23:32,549 --> 00:23:30,549
of emergence consciousness sort of

550
00:23:35,220 --> 00:23:32,559
finally pops up and then

551
00:23:36,659 --> 00:23:35,230
self-consciousness as well in ways that

552
00:23:39,299 --> 00:23:36,669
aren't fully understood and then you get

553
00:23:42,149 --> 00:23:39,309
into the hope and psychist sort of back

554
00:23:44,130 --> 00:23:42,159
reading and the tries to explain how it

555
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:44,140
was sort of Nathan there all along I

556
00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:46,330
mean I know you don't like pan-slavism

557
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:47,950
as well I think we've done the same page

558
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:49,690
with that I mean it's the sort of last

559
00:23:53,789 --> 00:23:51,730
guard asked the materialism if you like

560
00:23:56,159 --> 00:23:53,799
and so what we're going to look for in

561
00:23:58,200 --> 00:23:56,169
the future is a story of human evolution

562
00:24:02,730 --> 00:23:58,210
and the evolution of the cosmos on the

563
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:02,740
world that builds in all aspects of of

564
00:24:07,649 --> 00:24:04,570
our being and the spiritual and the

565
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:07,659
material for what we are going to do it

566
00:24:12,690 --> 00:24:09,970
from a materialistic standpoint where

567
00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:12,700
are we going to jump back over to to

568
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:14,110
that failed prop

569
00:24:18,419 --> 00:24:16,090
that's what I think is the hard part is

570
00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:18,429
I think to totally break clean from that

571
00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:21,910
as Rupert it gets pretty close to there

572
00:24:26,039 --> 00:24:23,710
but sometimes he even slips back into

573
00:24:28,740 --> 00:24:26,049
that so when Rupert Sheldrake does his

574
00:24:31,470 --> 00:24:28,750
experiments and finds that these morphic

575
00:24:34,020 --> 00:24:31,480
fields somehow exist and these little

576
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:34,030
birds that learn to take the caps off of

577
00:24:39,990 --> 00:24:37,570
milk bottles before World War Two still

578
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:40,000
know how to take the caps off of milk

579
00:24:46,110 --> 00:24:42,490
bottles six years later after three

580
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:46,120
generations of of birds I mean this is

581
00:24:51,210 --> 00:24:48,910
epigenetics kind of thing which is a

582
00:24:54,450 --> 00:24:51,220
misnomer because we would have no idea

583
00:24:55,140 --> 00:24:54,460
how genetics would pass along that kind

584
00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:55,150
of information

585
00:24:59,940 --> 00:24:58,090
so we're drawn to like sheldricks idea

586
00:25:03,720 --> 00:24:59,950
of these morphic fields that somehow

587
00:25:07,049 --> 00:25:03,730
this reality this consciousness is a

588
00:25:09,930 --> 00:25:07,059
small tip of the iceberg on this larger

589
00:25:13,470 --> 00:25:09,940
consciousness that transcends space and

590
00:25:16,380 --> 00:25:13,480
time if we make the shift and say that

591
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:16,390
appears to be as near as we can tell the

592
00:25:21,330 --> 00:25:18,640
reality then why do we want to switch

593
00:25:24,299 --> 00:25:21,340
back and start talking about this very

594
00:25:26,750 --> 00:25:24,309
time based linear version of

595
00:25:30,990 --> 00:25:26,760
consciousness when we know that's

596
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:31,000
probably not as close to what's real as

597
00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:36,330
the Christ consciousness version of

598
00:25:45,570 --> 00:25:42,910
consciousness I mean I'm with you I

599
00:25:48,870 --> 00:25:45,580
think but we can only sort of take steps

600
00:25:53,010 --> 00:25:48,880
not use forward if you like and try and

601
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:53,020
build it in get it to integrate with

602
00:25:56,820 --> 00:25:54,970
what what we do know and I think that

603
00:25:59,940 --> 00:25:56,830
Rupert's idea about of morphic resonance

604
00:26:03,060 --> 00:25:59,950
and is an attendant to to take a sort of

605
00:26:05,940 --> 00:26:03,070
next step forward to say that the

606
00:26:10,830 --> 00:26:05,950
material empirical to the touchable

607
00:26:13,169 --> 00:26:10,840
realm is only one part of it and he gets

608
00:26:16,409 --> 00:26:13,179
his idea of morphic fields partly from

609
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:16,419
electromagnetic fields which are fields

610
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:18,370
that are around us we can't see them but

611
00:26:21,299 --> 00:26:19,510
you can sort of measure them with

612
00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:21,309
detectors so then Bane morphic resonance

613
00:26:25,770 --> 00:26:23,679
is this and it sort of an analogical

614
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:25,780
extension of that and so he's trying to

615
00:26:30,590 --> 00:26:27,370
feel his way back in

616
00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:30,600
I think a spiritual version of things

617
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:33,520
which I think you know was much more

618
00:26:37,620 --> 00:26:35,530
common until the modern period again

619
00:26:38,850 --> 00:26:37,630
it's like we've had to what we I don't

620
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:38,860
have had to but we have done this

621
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:41,490
withdrawal to a kind of purely material

622
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:43,330
sentence of things which is it has

623
00:26:47,430 --> 00:26:45,910
brought various advantages you know the

624
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:47,440
obvious of medical advantages or

625
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:50,320
whatever but nonetheless it's it's not

626
00:26:53,370 --> 00:26:51,850
going to rest there and so we've got to

627
00:26:54,210 --> 00:26:53,380
find our way back into this bigger

628
00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:54,220
picture again

629
00:26:57,450 --> 00:26:55,510
I mean it's don't think I think mental

630
00:26:59,490 --> 00:26:57,460
health is really is in the vanguard

631
00:27:00,450 --> 00:26:59,500
there as well because the treatment of

632
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:00,460
mental health

633
00:27:05,430 --> 00:27:03,210
you know usually struggles and

634
00:27:06,990 --> 00:27:05,440
psychiatry can do certain things but

635
00:27:08,610 --> 00:27:07,000
it's not really very successful in terms

636
00:27:11,370 --> 00:27:08,620
of treating people's mental health I

637
00:27:14,490 --> 00:27:11,380
mean it can help people find a holding

638
00:27:16,380 --> 00:27:14,500
position if you like sometimes and so I

639
00:27:18,420 --> 00:27:16,390
think that you know where I work as a

640
00:27:20,220 --> 00:27:18,430
psychotherapist part of my interests

641
00:27:22,730 --> 00:27:20,230
there is how it's taking us back into a

642
00:27:24,990 --> 00:27:22,740
bigger picture what it is to be human

643
00:27:28,220 --> 00:27:25,000
can I just say something about this two

644
00:27:30,060 --> 00:27:28,230
millennia at 2,000 years ago again and

645
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:30,070
just sort of say something about what

646
00:27:37,290 --> 00:27:33,930
that might might be really trying to say

647
00:27:39,030 --> 00:27:37,300
because I think it I think it is when

648
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:39,040
quit start to like the pivotal bones of

649
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:40,450
human evolution was to Jim it anywhere

650
00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:43,050
it go it's way to do start way to

651
00:27:47,130 --> 00:27:45,520
triumphalist if you like and but but

652
00:27:48,450 --> 00:27:47,140
what it's pointing to what Barfield was

653
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:48,460
pointing to and what other people like

654
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:52,290
Dino were trying to point to was that um

655
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:54,850
something happened about that time that

656
00:27:59,550 --> 00:27:56,290
gave birth to the sense of being an

657
00:28:02,490 --> 00:27:59,560
individual as we really know it it had

658
00:28:05,250 --> 00:28:02,500
been emerging before I think that this

659
00:28:09,570 --> 00:28:05,260
axial age you know from around about 500

660
00:28:12,660 --> 00:28:09,580
BC when you track figures like the

661
00:28:15,780 --> 00:28:12,670
Buddha in India like now and Confucius

662
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:15,790
in China the Hebrew prophets figures

663
00:28:22,130 --> 00:28:18,010
like Socrates around the Mediterranean

664
00:28:24,660 --> 00:28:22,140
and what they were starting to do was to

665
00:28:26,820 --> 00:28:24,670
shift the sense of what it was to be

666
00:28:31,050 --> 00:28:26,830
human to have a consciousness from the

667
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:31,060
outside and take it inside you know the

668
00:28:35,550 --> 00:28:33,370
Hebrew prophets start saying God doesn't

669
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:35,560
want your temple sacrifice if he wants

670
00:28:38,850 --> 00:28:37,450
the sacrifice of a broken heart the

671
00:28:41,570 --> 00:28:38,860
Buddhist starts saying that the old

672
00:28:46,010 --> 00:28:41,580
Vedic traditions of the whole sacrifices

673
00:28:48,770 --> 00:28:46,020
that's not working anymore meditation

674
00:28:51,950 --> 00:28:48,780
you're come you're just kind of creating

675
00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:51,960
a timeline I like I mentioned in the

676
00:28:56,750 --> 00:28:54,960
email to you it's to me outside not as a

677
00:28:59,840 --> 00:28:56,760
non-christian someone who's brought up

678
00:29:02,299 --> 00:28:59,850
Christian and worked not worked but

679
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:02,309
found it very difficult to really get

680
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:04,320
out of that shadow and I kept thinking

681
00:29:08,539 --> 00:29:05,970
I'm out of that shadow and I found I

682
00:29:10,820 --> 00:29:08,549
wasn't I wasn't I wasn't you know now

683
00:29:13,010 --> 00:29:10,830
that I feel like I am I just look at

684
00:29:15,260 --> 00:29:13,020
that and I go mark if that was played

685
00:29:18,649 --> 00:29:15,270
back to you you would have none of it

686
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:18,659
how would we connect Buddha the 500 year

687
00:29:22,850 --> 00:29:20,730
gap between Buddha and Christ there's a

688
00:29:24,890 --> 00:29:22,860
lot of there's a lot of history there I

689
00:29:26,810 --> 00:29:24,900
mean how would we it's classic

690
00:29:29,270 --> 00:29:26,820
apologetics of the worst kind that we

691
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:29,280
hear from Christians all the time where

692
00:29:33,799 --> 00:29:31,679
they're cherry-picking data and working

693
00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:33,809
backwards to do it I just don't think

694
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:35,520
you'd go outside of the Christian

695
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:37,890
community and find a historian to say

696
00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:40,770
you know I've looked at all our recorded

697
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:42,960
history here's the moment in time I

698
00:29:47,899 --> 00:29:45,570
would put my finger on and say this was

699
00:29:49,750 --> 00:29:47,909
a pivotal moment no one no one would say

700
00:29:54,260 --> 00:29:49,760
that if they were coming at it from a

701
00:29:58,370 --> 00:29:54,270
from a Christian perspective yeah I mean

702
00:30:02,750 --> 00:29:58,380
I think you can put together a

703
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:02,760
historical story so for example you know

704
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:06,090
in the book I talk about the the story

705
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:07,650
that comes out of the Hebrew Bible and

706
00:30:11,210 --> 00:30:09,330
how there's an evolution of of

707
00:30:13,070 --> 00:30:11,220
consciousness that you can track through

708
00:30:15,620 --> 00:30:13,080
the Bible and you can do it relatively

709
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:15,630
objectively so for example you can what

710
00:30:22,610 --> 00:30:20,010
you can do is stack up the bits from the

711
00:30:24,529 --> 00:30:22,620
Bible and put them on a timeline because

712
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:24,539
modern biblical scholarship has teased

713
00:30:28,820 --> 00:30:26,250
out that you know certain bits of the

714
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:28,830
Bible are older than other babies it's

715
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:30,570
not the Genesis one is the oldest bit at

716
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:33,450
all you know so if you do that what you

717
00:30:37,970 --> 00:30:34,890
can do for example is show how the

718
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:37,980
language gradually moved from an

719
00:30:41,390 --> 00:30:39,330
interest in what's going on outside

720
00:30:42,919 --> 00:30:41,400
through an interest of what's going on

721
00:30:45,740 --> 00:30:42,929
inside it becomes more and more

722
00:30:49,010 --> 00:30:45,750
introspective the language so and that

723
00:30:50,779 --> 00:30:49,020
that sort of fits in a timeline you can

724
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:50,789
do the same with ancient Greek

725
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:53,010
philosophy because and we've got you

726
00:30:58,170 --> 00:30:54,850
know quite a we've got a continuous read

727
00:31:00,470 --> 00:30:58,180
like of ancient philosophy and and and

728
00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:00,480
similarly not just Socrates starts

729
00:31:04,890 --> 00:31:02,500
challenging people and getting to them

730
00:31:06,750 --> 00:31:04,900
to think for themselves and but for

731
00:31:08,730 --> 00:31:06,760
example that the Stoics and the

732
00:31:10,650 --> 00:31:08,740
Epicureans that the next generation of

733
00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:10,660
philosophers and they develop what it's

734
00:31:16,410 --> 00:31:14,230
been called Spiritual Exercises and this

735
00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:16,420
is the cultivation of the self and which

736
00:31:20,970 --> 00:31:18,910
is quite a new thing so you can I think

737
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:20,980
track in the book I need to in the

738
00:31:25,050 --> 00:31:22,570
Mediterranean Basin and I do completely

739
00:31:27,980 --> 00:31:25,060
set the point that that's a Western

740
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:27,990
point of view but I think it can be done

741
00:31:33,330 --> 00:31:30,730
from the Indian subcontinent and the

742
00:31:36,210 --> 00:31:33,340
Chinese perspective as well people have

743
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:36,220
done this looking at increasingly now

744
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:38,770
they at this notion of the axial age and

745
00:31:44,490 --> 00:31:42,640
what it suggests is that it's a bit

746
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:44,500
pejorative from the Western point of

747
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:46,690
view to say that we feel that there was

748
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:49,690
a sort of pivotal moment and when things

749
00:31:53,340 --> 00:31:51,490
like free world for example it's not

750
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:53,350
until the 1st century AD that

751
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:55,570
philosophers start talking about free

752
00:31:59,580 --> 00:31:57,130
will that just hadn't really existed

753
00:32:01,950 --> 00:31:59,590
before and then also things like fate

754
00:32:03,780 --> 00:32:01,960
and they start to lose their currency on

755
00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:03,790
people people feel less and less that

756
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:06,310
they're being controlled by fatalistic

757
00:32:11,730 --> 00:32:08,290
forces from the outside but there's a

758
00:32:13,770 --> 00:32:11,740
kind of inner freedom develops and this

759
00:32:15,150 --> 00:32:13,780
just because of the vicious use of

760
00:32:17,310 --> 00:32:15,160
history Christian is becoming so

761
00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:17,320
powerful in the West it all starts to be

762
00:32:21,270 --> 00:32:19,840
thought about in Christian terms but I

763
00:32:24,210 --> 00:32:21,280
think we're at a stage now where we can

764
00:32:26,250 --> 00:32:24,220
just loosen and the need to claim it for

765
00:32:27,870 --> 00:32:26,260
Christianity and start seeing how

766
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:27,880
actually it will work tap in other

767
00:32:32,490 --> 00:32:30,640
traditions as well so for example just

768
00:32:35,610 --> 00:32:32,500
the fair one will fall in there and the

769
00:32:38,730 --> 00:32:35,620
bhagavad-gita which is a is a text from

770
00:32:40,650 --> 00:32:38,740
maybe the 3rd century BC commentaries on

771
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:40,660
the Gita is as much an important as the

772
00:32:46,140 --> 00:32:43,330
Gita itself and commentaries to start to

773
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:46,150
develop notions of non-duality for

774
00:32:51,780 --> 00:32:49,690
example and that's who and requires a

775
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:51,790
kind of individual consciousness and

776
00:32:56,370 --> 00:32:54,310
that can appreciate and the one and the

777
00:32:58,500 --> 00:32:56,380
many the particular in the universal and

778
00:33:01,620 --> 00:32:58,510
exists in this sort of non dual realm

779
00:33:03,270 --> 00:33:01,630
and so I think III think there is a kind

780
00:33:04,980 --> 00:33:03,280
of story that can be told and can

781
00:33:06,540 --> 00:33:04,990
actually be made to stack up as well

782
00:33:08,910 --> 00:33:06,550
it's not just like a christian

783
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:08,920
triumphalist claim and that

784
00:33:14,970 --> 00:33:12,250
the individual with a kind of microcosm

785
00:33:17,730 --> 00:33:14,980
but then can begin to feel it it mirrors

786
00:33:18,990 --> 00:33:17,740
the macrocosm and so knows the macrocosm

787
00:33:20,690 --> 00:33:19,000
in a different way

788
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:20,700
a different kind of consciousness

789
00:33:26,490 --> 00:33:23,970
something crystallized around these

790
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:26,500
centuries which we call you know the

791
00:33:31,530 --> 00:33:29,650
first century of AD for example

792
00:33:34,290 --> 00:33:31,540
something does seem to have evolved

793
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:34,300
around them and and shaped not just the

794
00:33:43,230 --> 00:33:36,850
Western world but the Eastern world as

795
00:33:45,810 --> 00:33:43,240
well what you might do that well let me

796
00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:45,820
get there from another angle because I

797
00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:48,310
think we're touching on some really

798
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:50,710
important topics they're important to me

799
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:52,330
this is the kind of stuff I love talking

800
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:55,930
about and I so again appreciate what

801
00:34:00,180 --> 00:33:57,490
you're bringing to it because you have

802
00:34:03,210 --> 00:34:00,190
thought very deeply about this and when

803
00:34:06,180 --> 00:34:03,220
we contrast that to what we get on a

804
00:34:09,720 --> 00:34:06,190
regular basis in terms of what people in

805
00:34:12,090 --> 00:34:09,730
the scientific or in the modern

806
00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:12,100
intellectual culture which is mostly

807
00:34:17,610 --> 00:34:14,169
mostly atheistic especially over there

808
00:34:19,860 --> 00:34:17,620
it's just complete gobbly it just

809
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:19,870
doesn't even have any possibility of

810
00:34:24,570 --> 00:34:22,450
being true so I appreciate the dialog

811
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:24,580
and I want to touch on this thing of

812
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:26,770
Christ consciousness because we've kind

813
00:34:30,750 --> 00:34:28,450
of talked about it a couple times

814
00:34:32,730 --> 00:34:30,760
there's a chapter in your book titled

815
00:34:38,370 --> 00:34:32,740
Christ consciousness you have a lot to

816
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:38,380
say about it my my issue is that I think

817
00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:42,490
this makes clearer my point of Christ

818
00:34:48,180 --> 00:34:45,310
consciousness clearly transcends

819
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:48,190
space-time we can't talk about Christ

820
00:34:54,210 --> 00:34:50,890
consciousness and at the same time talk

821
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:54,220
about history and this and then this

822
00:34:59,130 --> 00:34:56,290
happened this century and let's look at

823
00:35:01,470 --> 00:34:59,140
this text it doesn't make any sense

824
00:35:03,570 --> 00:35:01,480
because everything we know about Christ

825
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:03,580
consciousness tells us that it is as

826
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:08,290
alive and meaningful today as it was

827
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:11,050
yesterday as it was for our grandparents

828
00:35:15,810 --> 00:35:13,930
and our great-grandparents and we can

829
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:15,820
extrapolate out of that as all great

830
00:35:21,420 --> 00:35:18,490
spiritual traditions have done and have

831
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:21,430
say is timeless it is truly beyond

832
00:35:25,950 --> 00:35:22,450
space-time

833
00:35:28,740 --> 00:35:25,960
so that's to me the misstep is to start

834
00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:28,750
pointing to a point in history then

835
00:35:36,990 --> 00:35:34,000
you're kind of misappropriating the idea

836
00:35:41,549 --> 00:35:37,000
of Christ consciousness of something

837
00:35:44,569 --> 00:35:41,559
that is truly transcendent so what do

838
00:35:47,789 --> 00:35:44,579
you think about in general about

839
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:47,799
transcending consciousness because I

840
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:50,410
think that's the that's the issue is

841
00:35:56,359 --> 00:35:52,890
consciousness our normal day-to-day

842
00:35:58,680 --> 00:35:56,369
consciousness something that can be

843
00:36:02,039 --> 00:35:58,690
transcended it's certainly something

844
00:36:04,289 --> 00:36:02,049
that spiritual masters throughout time

845
00:36:06,690 --> 00:36:04,299
have said is possible both in the east

846
00:36:08,250 --> 00:36:06,700
of the West and I brought up Jeffrey

847
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:08,260
Martin because I recently had him on the

848
00:36:12,900 --> 00:36:10,930
show and he's Harvard trained social

849
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:12,910
scientist who went out and interviewed

850
00:36:19,049 --> 00:36:14,650
extensively like eight-hour interviews

851
00:36:20,819 --> 00:36:19,059
with mystical Christians Buddhists Sufis

852
00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:20,829
he went to these communities I loved his

853
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:22,569
methodology human to these communities

854
00:36:26,819 --> 00:36:25,210
and say who is enlightened who is

855
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:26,829
awakening who is transcended

856
00:36:30,780 --> 00:36:28,210
consciousness whatever you want to say

857
00:36:33,559 --> 00:36:30,790
let me talk to them and then he tried to

858
00:36:37,349 --> 00:36:33,569
understand what the what the

859
00:36:43,380 --> 00:36:37,359
phenomenology was of that experience and

860
00:36:46,109 --> 00:36:43,390
again to me that's that's where we have

861
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:46,119
to fit Christ consciousness back in and

862
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:48,690
not try and mash it into some

863
00:36:58,289 --> 00:36:54,130
materialistic timeframe well yeah so I

864
00:37:01,770 --> 00:36:58,299
mean they used to be personally and in a

865
00:37:06,109 --> 00:37:01,780
way it was psychotherapy that gave me a

866
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:06,119
sort of direct felt sense of how time

867
00:37:12,450 --> 00:37:09,010
changes different levels of our

868
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:12,460
consciousness and at one everyday level

869
00:37:17,430 --> 00:37:15,520
hum-drum level it is kind of clock time

870
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:17,440
it is calendar time although I

871
00:37:21,630 --> 00:37:19,210
increasingly sense that that's the sort

872
00:37:23,309 --> 00:37:21,640
of convenience and so that you know we

873
00:37:25,289 --> 00:37:23,319
know when to speak to each other we know

874
00:37:27,750 --> 00:37:25,299
when we're going to meet you know we can

875
00:37:30,930 --> 00:37:27,760
put some sort of order at a mundane

876
00:37:32,970 --> 00:37:30,940
level into the world but when you sit

877
00:37:35,549 --> 00:37:32,980
with the people in psychotherapy and one

878
00:37:36,210 --> 00:37:35,559
of the key measures of what's going on

879
00:37:41,430 --> 00:37:36,220
it's

880
00:37:44,339 --> 00:37:41,440
whether you feel you're more in a sort

881
00:37:46,650 --> 00:37:44,349
of getting into a more timeless zone so

882
00:37:48,690 --> 00:37:46,660
for example if time feels like it gets a

883
00:37:51,660 --> 00:37:48,700
bit suspended you know that you're

884
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:51,670
sinking into less immediately conscious

885
00:37:56,190 --> 00:37:54,730
levels of someone's psyche where you're

886
00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:56,200
you're getting into something that

887
00:38:00,420 --> 00:37:57,970
they're not normally aware of but is now

888
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:00,430
coming to the surface and conversely you

889
00:38:04,109 --> 00:38:02,650
know if you've sort of feel in a session

890
00:38:05,700 --> 00:38:04,119
you're kind of watching the clock and

891
00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:05,710
you've got half an hour of good on

892
00:38:08,790 --> 00:38:07,030
there's only five minutes are gone you

893
00:38:10,740 --> 00:38:08,800
know that you're at a very sort of harm

894
00:38:14,430 --> 00:38:10,750
drum level and you've got to try and

895
00:38:17,220 --> 00:38:14,440
work out how you can sing well deeply my

896
00:38:20,370 --> 00:38:17,230
thinking in psychotherapy even at times

897
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:20,380
can get a sense of of a kind of eternal

898
00:38:25,020 --> 00:38:24,010
level of the of the personal psyche by

899
00:38:27,990 --> 00:38:25,030
which I mean it

900
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:28,000
a timeless level and and I personally

901
00:38:32,609 --> 00:38:30,250
had this when in my own psychotherapy

902
00:38:36,030 --> 00:38:32,619
which was pretty intense and for a

903
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:36,040
period of time I gradually gained a

904
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:38,050
sense of how things that have happened

905
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:41,050
in my very early life had quite as much

906
00:38:46,290 --> 00:38:43,450
an impact upon me now as they had back

907
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:46,300
then and so in my personal psyche I got

908
00:38:50,099 --> 00:38:47,920
a sense of how there's a kind of

909
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:50,109
timelessness as a were a lot of

910
00:38:56,010 --> 00:38:53,530
important events are kind of coexisting

911
00:38:58,349 --> 00:38:56,020
you might say and that really was so

912
00:39:01,020 --> 00:38:58,359
valuable to me because it gave me a

913
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:01,030
direct sense of how by analogy I could

914
00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:03,130
imagine that in the world around us and

915
00:39:08,550 --> 00:39:05,260
the cosmos around us whilst there is

916
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:08,560
kind of seasonal time you know solar

917
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:10,330
time if you like with the earth going

918
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:12,160
around the Sun there is some of this

919
00:39:17,099 --> 00:39:15,250
sort of unfolding in that normal way of

920
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:17,109
using the words of time I think there's

921
00:39:22,710 --> 00:39:20,050
also a kind of timelessness eternity

922
00:39:25,260 --> 00:39:22,720
which is co-present with that to which I

923
00:39:26,550 --> 00:39:25,270
guess the Mystics are onto and you know

924
00:39:28,470 --> 00:39:26,560
in the West we might call it Christ

925
00:39:30,750 --> 00:39:28,480
consciousness in the East we might call

926
00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:30,760
it Buddha consciousness but nonetheless

927
00:39:33,930 --> 00:39:33,310
it's possible through all sorts of

928
00:39:36,089 --> 00:39:33,940
techniques

929
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:36,099
maybe not psychotherapy may meditate may

930
00:39:41,910 --> 00:39:38,890
be meditation and so on to get more in

931
00:39:44,190 --> 00:39:41,920
touch with that more timeless stone that

932
00:39:47,210 --> 00:39:44,200
more eternal zone and so I see these

933
00:39:49,170 --> 00:39:47,220
things happening sort of a bit the same

934
00:39:50,070 --> 00:39:49,180
they're just different levels of

935
00:39:52,110 --> 00:39:50,080
consciousness and

936
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:52,120
depends what level of consciousness were

937
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:53,890
operating on at that particular moment

938
00:39:58,460 --> 00:39:56,410
and the Mystics get good at aligning

939
00:40:01,110 --> 00:39:58,470
themselves to the more timeless zones

940
00:40:03,470 --> 00:40:01,120
whereas you know many of us get more

941
00:40:05,610 --> 00:40:03,480
stuck at these times designs if you like

942
00:40:07,910 --> 00:40:05,620
you know I think you bring something

943
00:40:10,590 --> 00:40:07,920
really interesting to the table with

944
00:40:13,260 --> 00:40:10,600
psychotherapy and you're kind of saying

945
00:40:16,470 --> 00:40:13,270
a couple of things I wanted to bring out

946
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:16,480
and highlight one is that you're

947
00:40:26,010 --> 00:40:19,930
suggesting that psychotherapy is somehow

948
00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:26,020
at the edge of this understanding of the

949
00:40:32,850 --> 00:40:29,680
transcendence of consciousness in a

950
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:32,860
scientific way so you know of all the

951
00:40:37,470 --> 00:40:35,530
the sciences psychotherapy has always

952
00:40:40,050 --> 00:40:37,480
been the stepchild that's left outside

953
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:40,060
and that's maybe freed it up a little

954
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:41,890
bit to say well you know there is

955
00:40:47,850 --> 00:40:44,890
something to your scientific method but

956
00:40:49,470 --> 00:40:47,860
let's explore this and that with it you

957
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:49,480
know and I think that's really cool

958
00:40:54,990 --> 00:40:51,730
what you're doing there and I think the

959
00:40:56,580 --> 00:40:55,000
other thing that is just really I think

960
00:41:01,290 --> 00:40:56,590
will resonate with people anyone who's

961
00:41:04,470 --> 00:41:01,300
been in therapy is kind of uh I love how

962
00:41:06,750 --> 00:41:04,480
you talk about it as being a form of

963
00:41:11,330 --> 00:41:06,760
hypnosis in a way or akin to hypnosis

964
00:41:13,890 --> 00:41:11,340
and in that way being this catalyst to

965
00:41:16,890 --> 00:41:13,900
transcending space and time to this

966
00:41:18,570 --> 00:41:16,900
extended consciousness so I wanted to

967
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:18,580
highlight those points I don't know if

968
00:41:23,340 --> 00:41:21,010
you have anything more to say about that

969
00:41:26,820 --> 00:41:23,350
but I'd be interested in hearing if you

970
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:26,830
do yeah I mean I think that the reason

971
00:41:31,350 --> 00:41:29,770
why psychotherapy sort of emerged was

972
00:41:35,460 --> 00:41:31,360
because in the West particularly

973
00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:35,470
Reformation and we lost our wisdom about

974
00:41:39,780 --> 00:41:37,510
inner life and we lost our wisdom about

975
00:41:43,950 --> 00:41:39,790
the mystical side of things

976
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:43,960
and certainly Carl Jung said this he

977
00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:47,250
said that the this.left are kind of void

978
00:41:53,450 --> 00:41:50,560
that needed to be filled and so he

979
00:41:55,590 --> 00:41:53,460
wasn't at all surprised that in the

980
00:41:57,530 --> 00:41:55,600
before Freud's because there were people

981
00:42:00,210 --> 00:41:57,540
working on this stuff before Freud

982
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:00,220
before it became this sort of central

983
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:03,010
figure for good reasons and bad I think

984
00:42:06,110 --> 00:42:03,450
most

985
00:42:08,450 --> 00:42:06,120
cuz he was a great writer and so he kind

986
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:08,460
of he gave phrases that hooked into

987
00:42:13,190 --> 00:42:11,760
people's minds but um certainly uh for

988
00:42:15,350 --> 00:42:13,200
my own practice he's not a very

989
00:42:16,460 --> 00:42:15,360
important figure actually people like

990
00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:16,470
young and then other British

991
00:42:20,180 --> 00:42:18,510
psychotherapists are equally important

992
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:20,190
and but nonetheless it's an attempt to

993
00:42:25,130 --> 00:42:22,890
recover a continent in inner wisdom and

994
00:42:26,990 --> 00:42:25,140
that it's partly clinical it's a partly

995
00:42:28,940 --> 00:42:27,000
about trying to help people who are

996
00:42:31,850 --> 00:42:28,950
suffering and but it's got this great

997
00:42:33,230 --> 00:42:31,860
spiritual potential as well and one of

998
00:42:35,710 --> 00:42:33,240
the things which I really hope is that

999
00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:35,720
psychotherapy can develop ways of

1000
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:38,880
talking with other disciplines and with

1001
00:42:41,390 --> 00:42:40,530
spiritual traditions which I think it is

1002
00:42:44,060 --> 00:42:41,400
I think Buddhism

1003
00:42:46,610 --> 00:42:44,070
you know hers has done an awful long way

1004
00:42:48,380 --> 00:42:46,620
to do this now there's a number of great

1005
00:42:49,970 --> 00:42:48,390
writers who are both good instance like

1006
00:42:52,630 --> 00:42:49,980
a therapist if you've been thinking

1007
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:52,640
about mark Epstein and others like that

1008
00:42:57,260 --> 00:42:55,050
the way the Buddhism's come into the

1009
00:42:59,720 --> 00:42:57,270
West it's very much focused on this

1010
00:43:01,670 --> 00:42:59,730
inner mystical side and with the inner

1011
00:43:03,830 --> 00:43:01,680
practices like meditation I think

1012
00:43:05,270 --> 00:43:03,840
because Christianity more or less forgot

1013
00:43:09,410 --> 00:43:05,280
about this

1014
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:09,420
and so Buddhism has found there's a bit

1015
00:43:14,030 --> 00:43:11,370
of an opportunity to reintroduce these

1016
00:43:15,770 --> 00:43:14,040
these practices that open this side of

1017
00:43:17,570 --> 00:43:15,780
life up again and I hope it's like a

1018
00:43:21,740 --> 00:43:17,580
very weak and increasingly poppy pop of

1019
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:21,750
that discussion great I I agree I hope

1020
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:25,010
so too I hope in particular the kind of

1021
00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:27,570
psychotherapy I mean if psychotherapy is

1022
00:43:33,110 --> 00:43:30,870
more of an art than a science or a

1023
00:43:35,390 --> 00:43:33,120
combination of an art and a science you

1024
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:35,400
know I think it's people like you who

1025
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:39,690
will assure that change in in a way and

1026
00:43:44,140 --> 00:43:41,610
and and other people too but I mean I

1027
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:44,150
think the work that you do there is just

1028
00:43:48,380 --> 00:43:46,560
interesting because it's what you're

1029
00:43:51,220 --> 00:43:48,390
bringing to it rather than some

1030
00:43:53,390 --> 00:43:51,230
technique you know we know it's not some

1031
00:43:58,970 --> 00:43:53,400
technique although techniques can be

1032
00:44:01,160 --> 00:43:58,980
helpful to I know you know jack hunter

1033
00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:01,170
the anthropologist and i read like the

1034
00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:02,910
way the he's talking about anthropology

1035
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:07,140
as almost building certain mortals or

1036
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:10,800
cases telling stories and the way I

1037
00:44:15,380 --> 00:44:12,330
think the psychotherapy work that's best

1038
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:15,390
is when it has a kind of ensemble of

1039
00:44:19,849 --> 00:44:17,130
kind of stories

1040
00:44:22,670 --> 00:44:19,859
is Maps almost and that what you do is

1041
00:44:24,230 --> 00:44:22,680
you bring in the map that's going to

1042
00:44:27,099 --> 00:44:24,240
help you just take the next step and

1043
00:44:29,299 --> 00:44:27,109
then that works for a bit and then it

1044
00:44:31,339 --> 00:44:29,309
loses its efficacy so do you bring in a

1045
00:44:32,539 --> 00:44:31,349
kind of another map and see whether you

1046
00:44:34,099 --> 00:44:32,549
can take another step

1047
00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:34,109
because what you're always trying to be

1048
00:44:39,109 --> 00:44:37,049
in touch with this reality itself but we

1049
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:39,119
need these kind of things that mediate

1050
00:44:43,819 --> 00:44:41,970
us along the way a bit and so I think

1051
00:44:46,130 --> 00:44:43,829
that maybe psychotherapy is a bit like

1052
00:44:49,370 --> 00:44:46,140
anthropology it kind of stands on the

1053
00:44:51,410 --> 00:44:49,380
edge of a scientific approach but it's

1054
00:44:53,420 --> 00:44:51,420
also there's a lot of art and a lot of

1055
00:44:55,549 --> 00:44:53,430
insight and discernment that's required

1056
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:55,559
to be really good it's like a therapist

1057
00:45:00,170 --> 00:44:57,210
and I think a really good anthropologist

1058
00:45:01,759 --> 00:45:00,180
increasing that's been seen love it love

1059
00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:01,769
the parallel there have never thought

1060
00:45:11,329 --> 00:45:05,609
about that but I will forever forward

1061
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:11,339
nice let me then trace where we've been

1062
00:45:16,670 --> 00:45:13,410
because I think it'll help introduce

1063
00:45:18,470 --> 00:45:16,680
this next point or I was really trying

1064
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:18,480
to start with you is this idea that I

1065
00:45:23,720 --> 00:45:20,450
think we're in sync on that there is

1066
00:45:26,509 --> 00:45:23,730
something called consciousness and the

1067
00:45:29,420 --> 00:45:26,519
only reason to even mention that is to

1068
00:45:30,799 --> 00:45:29,430
again observe that we are image in a

1069
00:45:32,779 --> 00:45:30,809
culture that completely denies

1070
00:45:35,269 --> 00:45:32,789
consciousness and we want to forget that

1071
00:45:36,620 --> 00:45:35,279
we are because it's so absurd that we

1072
00:45:39,549 --> 00:45:36,630
don't really even know where to go with

1073
00:45:43,039 --> 00:45:39,559
that but you know our kids our friends

1074
00:45:44,839 --> 00:45:43,049
our next generation are all being

1075
00:45:47,839 --> 00:45:44,849
indoctrinated with this idea that you

1076
00:45:49,549 --> 00:45:47,849
don't really exist when we get down to

1077
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:49,559
it we'll put a lot of nice flowery

1078
00:45:53,559 --> 00:45:50,970
language around that but you don't

1079
00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:53,569
really exist you don't really have

1080
00:45:57,859 --> 00:45:55,920
feelings of love you just have this

1081
00:45:59,059 --> 00:45:57,869
biological firing that's going on in

1082
00:46:02,509 --> 00:45:59,069
your brain there really is anything

1083
00:46:04,670 --> 00:46:02,519
there and so I've beaten that horse to

1084
00:46:06,650 --> 00:46:04,680
death maybe but that's an important

1085
00:46:08,180 --> 00:46:06,660
point one and then I think where we went

1086
00:46:11,809 --> 00:46:08,190
next where I was trying to take you is

1087
00:46:15,009 --> 00:46:11,819
there is a way to transcend that

1088
00:46:18,319 --> 00:46:15,019
ordinary so consciousness is real

1089
00:46:21,049 --> 00:46:18,329
consciousness is something that we don't

1090
00:46:23,029 --> 00:46:21,059
understand the nature of it exactly but

1091
00:46:25,849 --> 00:46:23,039
it is there that voice inside our head

1092
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:25,859
is real it's real for all of us and then

1093
00:46:30,950 --> 00:46:28,170
I think where I was trying to go with

1094
00:46:32,870 --> 00:46:30,960
the Christ consciousness and with the

1095
00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:32,880
reference to the very excellent dr.

1096
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:36,720
Jeffrey Martin is if we go study people

1097
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:39,450
who say spiritual people spiritual

1098
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:42,650
masters who say this thing consistently

1099
00:46:49,460 --> 00:46:46,290
you can transcend that ordinary

1100
00:46:52,460 --> 00:46:49,470
consciousness you can't get beyond it in

1101
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:52,470
this world if you will now maybe it

1102
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:54,480
takes us to another reality or to an

1103
00:46:59,270 --> 00:46:56,970
extended consciousness but there is a

1104
00:47:01,670 --> 00:46:59,280
there there there is some place to go

1105
00:47:03,770 --> 00:47:01,680
and if we talk to mystical Christians

1106
00:47:05,690 --> 00:47:03,780
and then if we go back and look at

1107
00:47:07,310 --> 00:47:05,700
history and we talked to Rudolf Steiner

1108
00:47:08,750 --> 00:47:07,320
or Reid Rudolf Steiner because we need

1109
00:47:11,150 --> 00:47:08,760
to talk to him work or we talked to the

1110
00:47:13,130 --> 00:47:11,160
great gurus and mystics from all these

1111
00:47:14,870 --> 00:47:13,140
traditions they're all saying that so I

1112
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:14,880
think that's an important reality and

1113
00:47:18,110 --> 00:47:16,410
that's why I threw on the table this

1114
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:18,120
idea of Christ consciousness because

1115
00:47:21,170 --> 00:47:19,530
when people are talking about Christ

1116
00:47:22,100 --> 00:47:21,180
consciousness that's what I think

1117
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:22,110
they're talking about is a

1118
00:47:27,020 --> 00:47:25,050
transcendental consciousness when you

1119
00:47:29,870 --> 00:47:27,030
are communicating with Christ in that

1120
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:29,880
space you have transcended space and

1121
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:32,130
time there's no two ways about it so

1122
00:47:40,900 --> 00:47:35,370
that's a long-winded way of saying what

1123
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:40,910
can we learn can we start making some

1124
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:44,010
claims some assumptions can we bring

1125
00:47:49,570 --> 00:47:46,170
back some knowledge from people who

1126
00:47:51,830 --> 00:47:49,580
claim to have entered these extended

1127
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:51,840
consciousness realms like I was just

1128
00:47:57,460 --> 00:47:54,810
talking about or like I like to talk

1129
00:47:59,900 --> 00:47:57,470
about frequently on show the NDE

1130
00:48:03,290 --> 00:47:59,910
extended consciousness experience and

1131
00:48:04,970 --> 00:48:03,300
again that's important because with the

1132
00:48:07,220 --> 00:48:04,980
scientific overlay if you have to

1133
00:48:09,290 --> 00:48:07,230
acknowledge we can kind of tell them to

1134
00:48:10,850 --> 00:48:09,300
shut up now because these people are

1135
00:48:12,830 --> 00:48:10,860
dead you have no way of explaining how

1136
00:48:14,870 --> 00:48:12,840
they would have any conscious experience

1137
00:48:17,330 --> 00:48:14,880
so please don't interrupt me when I tell

1138
00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:17,340
you that there is this extended

1139
00:48:20,780 --> 00:48:19,200
consciousness Rome and here it's showing

1140
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:20,790
up and now you have to start explaining

1141
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:22,770
it but that isn't the conversation for

1142
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:24,450
you and I the conversation for you and I

1143
00:48:32,350 --> 00:48:29,280
is you said you were you tuned in to the

1144
00:48:36,140 --> 00:48:32,360
episode with David son fellow who is

1145
00:48:38,390 --> 00:48:36,150
compiled so many of the great near-death

1146
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:38,400
experience science researchers and has

1147
00:48:44,060 --> 00:48:41,370
tried to say hey there is a message

1148
00:48:46,460 --> 00:48:44,070
coming through from this extended

1149
00:48:50,690 --> 00:48:46,470
and it's a very spiritual message and

1150
00:48:54,050 --> 00:48:50,700
this is what it says and with regard to

1151
00:48:57,110 --> 00:48:54,060
your book I think it challenges that in

1152
00:49:01,010 --> 00:48:57,120
a way and it says you know don't worry

1153
00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:01,020
about a secret history of Christianity

1154
00:49:06,860 --> 00:49:04,710
worry about the current message that

1155
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:06,870
Christ consciousness is bringing through

1156
00:49:13,790 --> 00:49:11,370
in the form of these NDE experiences

1157
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:13,800
that was very long-winded but maybe you

1158
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:17,130
can start unpacking that for us yeah I

1159
00:49:23,210 --> 00:49:19,410
think that our task now is to relearn

1160
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:23,220
what Mystics of old have told us about

1161
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:25,170
and and it's a sort of in a way it's a

1162
00:49:30,590 --> 00:49:27,450
democratizing process I think because a

1163
00:49:33,830 --> 00:49:30,600
lot of mystics before you know they were

1164
00:49:35,210 --> 00:49:33,840
rather kind of elite monks and nuns you

1165
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:35,220
know they went up into the Himalayan

1166
00:49:41,450 --> 00:49:37,290
mountains for years on end or they lived

1167
00:49:43,340 --> 00:49:41,460
in enclosed orders in Europe and that

1168
00:49:46,250 --> 00:49:43,350
what we're in now is a much more general

1169
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:46,260
kind of spiritual revolution where all

1170
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:47,970
sorts of people are practicing these

1171
00:49:52,460 --> 00:49:50,490
techniques but also bringing other

1172
00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:52,470
experience to it as well whether it be

1173
00:49:56,750 --> 00:49:54,480
thinking about entities whether it be

1174
00:50:00,140 --> 00:49:56,760
thinking about psychedelics a whole

1175
00:50:03,140 --> 00:50:00,150
range of experiments for experimentation

1176
00:50:06,860 --> 00:50:03,150
is going on and I think the key thing is

1177
00:50:09,140 --> 00:50:06,870
to try and discern our way through it so

1178
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:09,150
I'm not a person I really like in this

1179
00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:11,970
area is Jeff cry fall and the

1180
00:50:16,310 --> 00:50:14,310
psychologist of religion and one of the

1181
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:16,320
big points which he's making is to how a

1182
00:50:20,780 --> 00:50:18,570
lot of the experiences that people have

1183
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:20,790
and whether it be in DES where there are

1184
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:24,450
be UFOs these extended consciousness

1185
00:50:30,620 --> 00:50:26,970
experiences and they're they're always

1186
00:50:33,050 --> 00:50:30,630
reflexive and as a word this sense of

1187
00:50:35,570 --> 00:50:33,060
things which ultimately is beyond us in

1188
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:35,580
order to take it even in some way we

1189
00:50:40,730 --> 00:50:37,770
need to take it in a in in the way that

1190
00:50:44,420 --> 00:50:40,740
we can relate to and that inevitably um

1191
00:50:47,450 --> 00:50:44,430
maybe this sort of paints it in rather

1192
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:47,460
the to concrete colors or maybe reduces

1193
00:50:50,990 --> 00:50:49,290
it somewhat and although there's also

1194
00:50:53,330 --> 00:50:51,000
always a sense for this channeling

1195
00:50:55,460 --> 00:50:53,340
something and bigger than just the

1196
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:55,470
immediate rapport if you like so you

1197
00:51:01,180 --> 00:50:57,359
know to NDEs have you know the comment

1198
00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:01,190
bindis about light and and gardens and

1199
00:51:07,910 --> 00:51:04,710
and beauty and so on now you know these

1200
00:51:10,910 --> 00:51:07,920
are kind of earthly images if you like

1201
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:10,920
squared that is trying to say you know

1202
00:51:15,140 --> 00:51:12,450
something a bit like this but a whole

1203
00:51:17,599 --> 00:51:15,150
lot more besides and I think that trying

1204
00:51:21,049 --> 00:51:17,609
to discern this whole range of

1205
00:51:22,999 --> 00:51:21,059
paranormal experiences and miss very

1206
00:51:25,940 --> 00:51:23,009
much where we're at now I miss very much

1207
00:51:28,779 --> 00:51:25,950
what our task is these days trying to

1208
00:51:31,729 --> 00:51:28,789
link it with what people said before and

1209
00:51:35,870 --> 00:51:31,739
in the mystical traditions but to remake

1210
00:51:37,670 --> 00:51:35,880
it again now and so that that's how I

1211
00:51:40,579 --> 00:51:37,680
kind of understand when we're at Mary it

1212
00:51:43,670 --> 00:51:40,589
is an evolution it's like a next step

1213
00:51:45,609 --> 00:51:43,680
it's not just a recovery and sometimes

1214
00:51:48,410 --> 00:51:45,619
it's confusing sometimes it's just weird

1215
00:51:51,370 --> 00:51:48,420
sometimes it's frightening you know

1216
00:51:54,229 --> 00:51:51,380
something you talked about before but

1217
00:51:57,019 --> 00:51:54,239
it's also exciting you know this is I

1218
00:52:00,710 --> 00:51:57,029
think the spiritual leading edge of our

1219
00:52:02,779 --> 00:52:00,720
times recovering and moving on from this

1220
00:52:04,460 --> 00:52:02,789
a biological robot there's no such thing

1221
00:52:06,380 --> 00:52:04,470
as consciousness and there's a reason I

1222
00:52:08,930 --> 00:52:06,390
think why these NDA's why these UFO

1223
00:52:11,989 --> 00:52:08,940
experiences by the paranormal sigh it

1224
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:11,999
doesn't go away but it's because it's

1225
00:52:16,190 --> 00:52:13,890
like it's this extended consciousness of

1226
00:52:17,749 --> 00:52:16,200
practicing back in on us and saying

1227
00:52:20,589 --> 00:52:17,759
you've got to make something of this

1228
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:20,599
fear in humanity let alone anything else

1229
00:52:23,839 --> 00:52:22,650
you know that's certainly one way of

1230
00:52:26,509 --> 00:52:23,849
looking at it and I have a ton of

1231
00:52:27,829 --> 00:52:26,519
respect for Jeff I just love the work

1232
00:52:30,739 --> 00:52:27,839
that he's done and he's somebody's

1233
00:52:32,989 --> 00:52:30,749
really advanced the ball a lot but I

1234
00:52:35,900 --> 00:52:32,999
really take issue with with the basic

1235
00:52:36,829 --> 00:52:35,910
premise of it inevitably he seems to be

1236
00:52:39,499 --> 00:52:36,839
sidestepping

1237
00:52:42,289 --> 00:52:39,509
a lot of the data if we want to be

1238
00:52:45,049 --> 00:52:42,299
social scientists if we want to

1239
00:52:46,849 --> 00:52:45,059
appreciate what you're saying like with

1240
00:52:49,309 --> 00:52:46,859
Jack hunter which I appreciate he's

1241
00:52:51,229 --> 00:52:49,319
saying let's take the tools that we have

1242
00:52:53,599 --> 00:52:51,239
and let's apply them the best we can

1243
00:52:55,460 --> 00:52:53,609
similarly with the beautiful thing you

1244
00:52:58,609 --> 00:52:55,470
said about psychotherapy which i think

1245
00:53:01,880 --> 00:52:58,619
is spot-on let's take these collection

1246
00:53:04,249 --> 00:53:01,890
of techniques accounts stories and

1247
00:53:06,499 --> 00:53:04,259
that's let's use our best methods to

1248
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:06,509
figure out what they're telling us so

1249
00:53:10,940 --> 00:53:09,690
when I hear people creep up to the edge

1250
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:10,950
of the border

1251
00:53:15,950 --> 00:53:13,170
the near-death experience science data

1252
00:53:17,780 --> 00:53:15,960
and then say oh but now let me jump over

1253
00:53:19,579 --> 00:53:17,790
all that because clearly they have a

1254
00:53:21,319 --> 00:53:19,589
cultural overlay and they were a

1255
00:53:23,780 --> 00:53:21,329
Christian before and that's why they saw

1256
00:53:26,780 --> 00:53:23,790
Jesus and put him in sin we don't know

1257
00:53:30,079 --> 00:53:26,790
that we can't say that I think we have

1258
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:30,089
to settle in to the social science tools

1259
00:53:34,599 --> 00:53:32,130
that we have and look at like the work

1260
00:53:37,660 --> 00:53:34,609
of Geoffrey long was medical doctor

1261
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:37,670
oncologist works with dying all the time

1262
00:53:43,910 --> 00:53:40,970
has put together a scientific survey of

1263
00:53:46,510 --> 00:53:43,920
3000 now a near-death experiencers and

1264
00:53:48,470 --> 00:53:46,520
start sorting through those accounts and

1265
00:53:50,780 --> 00:53:48,480
understanding and correlating and

1266
00:53:52,940 --> 00:53:50,790
sifting through the data in the same way

1267
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:52,950
that I referenced you know dr. Geoffrey

1268
00:53:57,940 --> 00:53:55,410
Martin and the transcendent experience I

1269
00:54:01,160 --> 00:53:57,950
love the fact that a Harvard trained

1270
00:54:03,290 --> 00:54:01,170
social scientists is saying let's see

1271
00:54:06,950 --> 00:54:03,300
what we can tease out of there and I'm

1272
00:54:09,890 --> 00:54:06,960
not comfortable with jeff kraebel

1273
00:54:12,380 --> 00:54:09,900
saying well it's all just kind of

1274
00:54:15,829 --> 00:54:12,390
paranormal isn't it and isn't it funny

1275
00:54:19,309 --> 00:54:15,839
how elves and this hey maybe but again

1276
00:54:20,660 --> 00:54:19,319
show me the data or acknowledge that

1277
00:54:22,730 --> 00:54:20,670
we're not going to play that game if

1278
00:54:24,109 --> 00:54:22,740
we're not gonna play that game okay but

1279
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:24,119
then you and I don't need to be having

1280
00:54:28,339 --> 00:54:26,130
this conversation you don't need to be

1281
00:54:30,620 --> 00:54:28,349
writing books no one else needs to be

1282
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:30,630
doing anything if we're not going to try

1283
00:54:38,569 --> 00:54:34,410
and engage with it so do you think there

1284
00:54:43,359 --> 00:54:38,579
is this lack of engagement with the

1285
00:54:46,069 --> 00:54:43,369
near-death experience data science

1286
00:54:47,210 --> 00:54:46,079
well are you better than that because

1287
00:54:48,740 --> 00:54:47,220
it's something which I've sort of

1288
00:54:53,750 --> 00:54:48,750
touched in or not you know at least

1289
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:53,760
through your programs and I think the

1290
00:54:59,420 --> 00:54:55,410
struggle is to try and develop a

1291
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:59,430
language that that absorbs from the past

1292
00:55:04,220 --> 00:55:01,440
that absorbs these cultural overlays but

1293
00:55:06,550 --> 00:55:04,230
does transcend them maybe a little

1294
00:55:08,930 --> 00:55:06,560
example might be useful and I just read

1295
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:08,940
actually Jennifer's latest book which is

1296
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:12,810
co-authored with Elizabeth click on her

1297
00:55:20,690 --> 00:55:17,010
surname it is a birth lock is it oh yeah

1298
00:55:22,670 --> 00:55:20,700
yes yes right and it's native land who

1299
00:55:25,070 --> 00:55:22,680
has this extraordinary near-death

1300
00:55:28,250 --> 00:55:25,080
experience outside of her sin

1301
00:55:30,730 --> 00:55:28,260
in Houston which happens to be blocks

1302
00:55:32,750 --> 00:55:30,740
from where Jeffrey crippled lives and as

1303
00:55:34,130 --> 00:55:32,760
chance would have it they wind up

1304
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:34,140
writing this book together because she

1305
00:55:38,750 --> 00:55:36,330
has this really dramatic near-death

1306
00:55:43,330 --> 00:55:38,760
experience with all the usual stuff of

1307
00:55:46,340 --> 00:55:43,340
meeting God and encountering it so yeah

1308
00:55:48,110 --> 00:55:46,350
yeah great great change flash is it I

1309
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:48,120
think yeah that's it that's it yeah yeah

1310
00:55:52,340 --> 00:55:50,640
so I read this book and one of these

1311
00:55:54,650 --> 00:55:52,350
have struck me was power Elizabeth

1312
00:55:56,060 --> 00:55:54,660
Chrome's experience of paradise her in

1313
00:55:58,610 --> 00:55:56,070
de sort of takes her to this beautiful

1314
00:56:01,400 --> 00:55:58,620
garden where she's deaf - weak s-- and

1315
00:56:03,110 --> 00:56:01,410
she learns various things and a number

1316
00:56:06,020 --> 00:56:03,120
of the things which she learns for me

1317
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:06,030
have parallels with what Dante describes

1318
00:56:10,790 --> 00:56:08,850
in Paradise in the Divine Comedy I'm a

1319
00:56:13,130 --> 00:56:10,800
huge fan of Dante's Divine Comedy I

1320
00:56:17,690 --> 00:56:13,140
think it can be read as a kind of early

1321
00:56:20,060 --> 00:56:17,700
attempt and to describe in in in kind of

1322
00:56:22,370 --> 00:56:20,070
early modern ways the kind of things

1323
00:56:23,810 --> 00:56:22,380
which we're trying to talk about now and

1324
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:23,820
so for example the way that she

1325
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:26,970
describes telepathy in Paradise is

1326
00:56:30,260 --> 00:56:28,170
really interesting because it's not

1327
00:56:32,720 --> 00:56:30,270
actually just I can read your thoughts

1328
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:32,730
and you can read my thoughts what it is

1329
00:56:38,990 --> 00:56:36,210
is that um all Minds have access to a

1330
00:56:40,670 --> 00:56:39,000
kind of big mind and she doesn't call it

1331
00:56:42,410 --> 00:56:40,680
God but you know maybe that that's the

1332
00:56:44,420 --> 00:56:42,420
words that will come to some people's

1333
00:56:47,090 --> 00:56:44,430
minds but there's a kind of universal

1334
00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:47,100
intelligence that she senses and so it's

1335
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:50,730
triangulated through this universal

1336
00:56:55,100 --> 00:56:53,010
intelligence which she has access to in

1337
00:56:56,090 --> 00:56:55,110
Paradise and Dante says exactly the same

1338
00:56:58,100 --> 00:56:56,100
thing

1339
00:57:00,710 --> 00:56:58,110
Dante says that he realized that in

1340
00:57:03,860 --> 00:57:00,720
Paradise that his thoughts were known by

1341
00:57:04,790 --> 00:57:03,870
the Angels and the souls and Beatrice

1342
00:57:07,220 --> 00:57:04,800
and so on the people he encountered

1343
00:57:09,110 --> 00:57:07,230
because they were all sharing in this

1344
00:57:09,890 --> 00:57:09,120
kind of extended consciousness in

1345
00:57:12,140 --> 00:57:09,900
paradise

1346
00:57:14,930 --> 00:57:12,150
it was triangulated now it's just one

1347
00:57:16,340 --> 00:57:14,940
example but it really it was really

1348
00:57:18,590 --> 00:57:16,350
interesting to me that that's how its

1349
00:57:20,390 --> 00:57:18,600
structured and I thought maybe that's a

1350
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:20,400
true thing that's beginning to come

1351
00:57:27,110 --> 00:57:24,530
through about how and this these

1352
00:57:29,180 --> 00:57:27,120
telepathic communications this extended

1353
00:57:31,070 --> 00:57:29,190
consciousness works and then it's not

1354
00:57:33,050 --> 00:57:31,080
about it's not a bit like me and you

1355
00:57:35,690 --> 00:57:33,060
speaking together is because we both

1356
00:57:37,940 --> 00:57:35,700
have access to a wider mind that it

1357
00:57:38,750 --> 00:57:37,950
shows us things or in which we see

1358
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:38,760
things

1359
00:57:43,030 --> 00:57:41,010
maybe it's details like that which are

1360
00:57:45,650 --> 00:57:43,040
going to take us the next steps forward

1361
00:57:49,370 --> 00:57:45,660
by looking early accounts and making

1362
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:49,380
comparisons absolutely I totally grew

1363
00:57:54,530 --> 00:57:52,530
through the one pick I would I would be

1364
00:57:57,800 --> 00:57:54,540
picky though with the word beginning

1365
00:57:59,090 --> 00:57:57,810
beginning let's go back to Plato right

1366
00:58:01,550 --> 00:57:59,100
and he's talking about the near-death

1367
00:58:04,700 --> 00:58:01,560
experience of a soldier right so these

1368
00:58:08,300 --> 00:58:04,710
are it's back to the very beginning and

1369
00:58:11,300 --> 00:58:08,310
the the you are a biological robot in a

1370
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:11,310
meaningless universe mean as you

1371
00:58:16,580 --> 00:58:13,970
correctly pointed out is a very modern

1372
00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:16,590
once in history we can't point down

1373
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:19,680
either part of in history or any other

1374
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:21,690
culture that's adopted such a ridiculous

1375
00:58:26,930 --> 00:58:24,570
idea which may raise a more interesting

1376
00:58:29,330 --> 00:58:26,940
question of why why is that being

1377
00:58:32,510 --> 00:58:29,340
advanced is there a reason for that is

1378
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:32,520
there an attempt to make us forget or

1379
00:58:39,140 --> 00:58:35,490
not remember these truths that I think

1380
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:39,150
we know and throughout time every mystic

1381
00:58:45,830 --> 00:58:43,050
has told us oh yeah I I found it I know

1382
00:58:47,810 --> 00:58:45,840
the truth now and if we're to understand

1383
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:47,820
the near-death experience one thing we

1384
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:50,010
can take away from that is that is not a

1385
00:58:54,740 --> 00:58:53,250
recent phenomenon that didn't just that

1386
00:58:58,130 --> 00:58:54,750
is not a recent phenomenon that just

1387
00:59:00,650 --> 00:58:58,140
didn't start today we can be pretty

1388
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:00,660
confident that throughout time people

1389
00:59:05,060 --> 00:59:02,370
have had these kind of experiences and

1390
00:59:08,270 --> 00:59:05,070
that might be a far better explanation

1391
00:59:11,690 --> 00:59:08,280
for what we're reading in the Christian

1392
00:59:13,550 --> 00:59:11,700
texts and why they have these parallels

1393
00:59:16,820 --> 00:59:13,560
with these other great spiritual

1394
00:59:20,900 --> 00:59:16,830
traditions I mean back to the question

1395
00:59:24,770 --> 00:59:20,910
are we missing the boat when we don't

1396
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:24,780
start with for example the extended

1397
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:27,570
consciousness as described from the

1398
00:59:30,980 --> 00:59:29,730
near-death experience science isn't that

1399
00:59:34,730 --> 00:59:30,990
the starting point

1400
00:59:36,620 --> 00:59:34,740
well the Plato's nd although all the

1401
00:59:38,390 --> 00:59:36,630
myth of Earth the soldier at the end of

1402
00:59:40,460 --> 00:59:38,400
the Republic that he spends a long time

1403
00:59:41,810 --> 00:59:40,470
describing it actually it's really quite

1404
00:59:44,390 --> 00:59:41,820
remarkable when you read it it's not

1405
00:59:48,050 --> 00:59:44,400
just I heard of an ende experience he he

1406
00:59:50,330 --> 00:59:48,060
describes it in great detail and but

1407
00:59:52,610 --> 00:59:50,340
what's what what seems to be coming

1408
00:59:55,670 --> 00:59:52,620
through there is that the NDE

1409
00:59:58,580 --> 00:59:55,680
that Plato describes and uses has a

1410
00:59:59,900 --> 00:59:58,590
particular meaning for that time and in

1411
01:00:03,470 --> 00:59:59,910
particular I think the meaning for that

1412
01:00:05,780 --> 01:00:03,480
time is that the soldier that has the

1413
01:00:08,420 --> 01:00:05,790
NDA he experiences a process of judgment

1414
01:00:10,820 --> 01:00:08,430
and he learns that what's really

1415
01:00:14,180 --> 01:00:10,830
important is to cultivate your own soul

1416
01:00:16,700 --> 01:00:14,190
and to choose what's good in life and to

1417
01:00:18,500 --> 01:00:16,710
refuse what's bad what's what's evil and

1418
01:00:20,570 --> 01:00:18,510
so that you can as all and make your

1419
01:00:23,660 --> 01:00:20,580
stuff ready for the next life

1420
01:00:26,510 --> 01:00:23,670
now that of Plato's time was quite a new

1421
01:00:28,730 --> 01:00:26,520
idea and it's moving on for these ideas

1422
01:00:31,010 --> 01:00:28,740
of fate you know so if you read Homer

1423
01:00:33,290 --> 01:00:31,020
and Achilles doesn't worry about the

1424
01:00:35,870 --> 01:00:33,300
goodness of his soul and McNeeley

1425
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:35,880
worries about being a hero and that was

1426
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:37,650
a word was the thing that would make him

1427
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:39,090
a god that would give him immortality

1428
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:42,090
back in homers time so I think Plato is

1429
01:00:47,060 --> 01:00:43,890
on the emergence of a new consciousness

1430
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:47,070
which is saying a no the individual can

1431
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:49,530
cultivate their soul so that they can as

1432
01:00:54,290 --> 01:00:51,330
a word tune in to what's good in the

1433
01:00:56,510 --> 01:00:54,300
cosmos and tune out of what's bad and

1434
01:00:59,330 --> 01:00:56,520
that this will have an impact upon their

1435
01:01:03,470 --> 01:00:59,340
future incarnations in plato's case so

1436
01:01:05,810 --> 01:01:03,480
before the agency has the nd he has a

1437
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:05,820
meaning for Plato and he draws that

1438
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:07,650
meaning out now we now take it for

1439
01:01:11,210 --> 01:01:09,450
granted that that's good and ill and

1440
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:11,220
that we can live an ethical life and so

1441
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:13,410
on as a worthy meaning of that a de has

1442
01:01:18,380 --> 01:01:16,050
passed through Plato into our general

1443
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:18,390
sense of things but I think that vendee

1444
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:21,090
is now are encouraging us to grapple

1445
01:01:26,150 --> 01:01:23,610
with something new that's a 100 years

1446
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:26,160
200 years 500 years who knows when will

1447
01:01:30,950 --> 01:01:27,570
become part of everyday consciousness

1448
01:01:33,860 --> 01:01:30,960
there so that the Indies are pushing us

1449
01:01:35,990 --> 01:01:33,870
forward I think to to become more more

1450
01:01:39,140 --> 01:01:36,000
aware of different parts of what it is

1451
01:01:42,140 --> 01:01:39,150
to be human and how to live well great

1452
01:01:45,950 --> 01:01:42,150
great I guess I'm gonna pick again it

1453
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:45,960
Plato didn't do that Plato just recorded

1454
01:01:52,550 --> 01:01:49,770
a dear death experience Plato is David

1455
01:01:54,500 --> 01:01:52,560
son fellow saying hey I just heard this

1456
01:01:56,630 --> 01:01:54,510
great near-death experience account

1457
01:01:59,120 --> 01:01:56,640
here's what I think it means regarding

1458
01:02:02,240 --> 01:01:59,130
the purpose of life so back to the idea

1459
01:02:05,540 --> 01:02:02,250
that Plato is somehow evolving our

1460
01:02:06,860 --> 01:02:05,550
consciousness what seems to be I don't

1461
01:02:09,290 --> 01:02:06,870
like that term

1462
01:02:10,490 --> 01:02:09,300
it may be just frame it better to make

1463
01:02:12,020 --> 01:02:10,500
it less conflicts I think you're right

1464
01:02:14,540 --> 01:02:12,030
you pick something right I think what

1465
01:02:16,130 --> 01:02:14,550
Plato Plato was very in tune to the

1466
01:02:18,830 --> 01:02:16,140
consciousness that was emerging at his

1467
01:02:21,860 --> 01:02:18,840
time and he creates a consciousness I

1468
01:02:23,900 --> 01:02:21,870
think that consciousness has there isn't

1469
01:02:26,510 --> 01:02:23,910
tight there's a timeless nature to it if

1470
01:02:29,180 --> 01:02:26,520
those stories have always been there and

1471
01:02:33,820 --> 01:02:29,190
there are overlay of some kind of

1472
01:02:36,890 --> 01:02:33,830
evolution I just not sure that that is

1473
01:02:40,430 --> 01:02:36,900
rock-solid in my opinion it seems like

1474
01:02:43,070 --> 01:02:40,440
we're better off going and studying that

1475
01:02:44,510 --> 01:02:43,080
NDE consciousness and then we can sort

1476
01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:44,520
and sift through it and decide what we

1477
01:02:47,660 --> 01:02:46,290
keep and what we don't keep whether

1478
01:02:49,070 --> 01:02:47,670
he'll you know you mentioned that

1479
01:02:50,870 --> 01:02:49,080
Davidson fellow interview I thought it's

1480
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:50,880
very interesting about Hell and that

1481
01:02:55,070 --> 01:02:52,770
really riles a lot of people and

1482
01:02:57,350 --> 01:02:55,080
particularly people in the Christian

1483
01:02:59,060 --> 01:02:57,360
community and the progressive Christian

1484
01:03:01,490 --> 01:02:59,070
community want to get as far away from

1485
01:03:03,050 --> 01:03:01,500
Hell as they can and yet go read the

1486
01:03:04,610 --> 01:03:03,060
near-death experience accounts and

1487
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:04,620
there's a significant number of them

1488
01:03:09,770 --> 01:03:07,530
that bring hell centerstage it I think

1489
01:03:12,170 --> 01:03:09,780
that's okay we have to understand that

1490
01:03:14,390 --> 01:03:12,180
they bring judgment centerstage we have

1491
01:03:16,990 --> 01:03:14,400
to understand what that means and the

1492
01:03:19,460 --> 01:03:17,000
message I think is very is very

1493
01:03:21,950 --> 01:03:19,470
anti-christian it's fundamentally

1494
01:03:24,650 --> 01:03:21,960
opposed to the Christianity that we

1495
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:24,660
understand and that is there is no

1496
01:03:28,430 --> 01:03:26,970
judgment there is there is complete

1497
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:28,440
judgment you are completely responsible

1498
01:03:34,700 --> 01:03:32,010
for 100% of everything that you do but

1499
01:03:36,650 --> 01:03:34,710
only you only you your soul your

1500
01:03:39,770 --> 01:03:36,660
consciousness will judge there will be

1501
01:03:42,830 --> 01:03:39,780
no judgment from any other entity source

1502
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:42,840
or higher our higher being it only comes

1503
01:03:48,740 --> 01:03:45,210
through you and your experience with

1504
01:03:51,950 --> 01:03:48,750
Hell will be again your soul your

1505
01:03:54,110 --> 01:03:51,960
journey for whatever purpose we can

1506
01:03:57,410 --> 01:03:54,120
infer out of that these are our

1507
01:03:59,900 --> 01:03:57,420
fundamental questions about what is the

1508
01:04:01,760 --> 01:03:59,910
nature of this extended consciousness

1509
01:04:05,030 --> 01:04:01,770
realm and how it relates to our life and

1510
01:04:08,510 --> 01:04:05,040
it just seems so much more accessible

1511
01:04:11,780 --> 01:04:08,520
available and meaningful with this kind

1512
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:11,790
of data than it does from reading these

1513
01:04:18,590 --> 01:04:15,810
old books well see hell has a history to

1514
01:04:20,059 --> 01:04:18,600
hell and didn't really exist in homers

1515
01:04:21,859 --> 01:04:20,069
time for example you know

1516
01:04:23,959 --> 01:04:21,869
Achilles goes to the underworld and

1517
01:04:26,509 --> 01:04:23,969
tries to meet up with his friend

1518
01:04:28,670 --> 01:04:26,519
Hephaestus Hephaestus is already fading

1519
01:04:30,910 --> 01:04:28,680
away he's already becoming a shade and

1520
01:04:33,829 --> 01:04:30,920
this is a terrible tragedy for Achilles

1521
01:04:35,900 --> 01:04:33,839
and so it's he's just going into this

1522
01:04:37,609 --> 01:04:35,910
sort of he's returning to the ancestors

1523
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:37,619
was the traditional way of talking about

1524
01:04:42,680 --> 01:04:39,930
it and he'll starts to emerge in the

1525
01:04:44,779 --> 01:04:42,690
century or two before the birth of

1526
01:04:47,059 --> 01:04:44,789
Christianity and I think it starts to

1527
01:04:49,099 --> 01:04:47,069
emerge in conjunction with the birth of

1528
01:04:50,900 --> 01:04:49,109
the sense of being an individual with

1529
01:04:53,269 --> 01:04:50,910
having a connect in a life with having a

1530
01:04:55,549 --> 01:04:53,279
sense of responsibility and because that

1531
01:04:57,969 --> 01:04:55,559
brings in the notion of judgment and I

1532
01:05:00,979 --> 01:04:57,979
think at first it is conceived as

1533
01:05:02,630 --> 01:05:00,989
judgment from divine beings and so on

1534
01:05:04,430 --> 01:05:02,640
certainly what you get in the in

1535
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:04,440
Christian text you get in Plato or as

1536
01:05:08,839 --> 01:05:06,690
well but I think what's happening now is

1537
01:05:12,140 --> 01:05:08,849
that as we become more and more aware as

1538
01:05:15,289 --> 01:05:12,150
we evolve and realize that our I am you

1539
01:05:17,870 --> 01:05:15,299
might say is there is an echo of a

1540
01:05:19,910 --> 01:05:17,880
divine I am to use the Jewish expression

1541
01:05:23,569 --> 01:05:19,920
and that there's a divine spark within

1542
01:05:25,699 --> 01:05:23,579
us that we realize that we can take

1543
01:05:27,949 --> 01:05:25,709
responsibility for our own judgment and

1544
01:05:29,719 --> 01:05:27,959
so now people have this sense very

1545
01:05:31,670 --> 01:05:29,729
powerfully that is a word they can

1546
01:05:34,729 --> 01:05:31,680
understand before a mirror and see

1547
01:05:37,519 --> 01:05:34,739
themselves and then make future choices

1548
01:05:39,469 --> 01:05:37,529
and so on based on that at that stage of

1549
01:05:41,029 --> 01:05:39,479
development might stay I'm allowed to

1550
01:05:42,380 --> 01:05:41,039
really do see stage as a developer all

1551
01:05:44,749 --> 01:05:42,390
the way through when you really start to

1552
01:05:47,269 --> 01:05:44,759
to look at um how things do have a

1553
01:05:48,529 --> 01:05:47,279
history the reason for that history to

1554
01:05:50,420 --> 01:05:48,539
come here come to the second point if I

1555
01:05:51,739 --> 01:05:50,430
can just carry on for a minute and you

1556
01:05:55,609 --> 01:05:51,749
know which I think you're also asking

1557
01:05:58,069 --> 01:05:55,619
there is that and I we brought by a kind

1558
01:05:59,839 --> 01:05:58,079
of Neoplatonic vision which you know

1559
01:06:02,299 --> 01:05:59,849
comes from about the fifth century AD

1560
01:06:04,930 --> 01:06:02,309
and started to emerge about that time

1561
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:04,940
which is that there's been a kind of

1562
01:06:08,839 --> 01:06:06,930
originally as it were there wasn't a big

1563
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:08,849
bang there was what what the near plane

1564
01:06:12,620 --> 01:06:11,130
is called the warm and which was a kind

1565
01:06:15,019 --> 01:06:12,630
of fullness of everything and it was

1566
01:06:17,420 --> 01:06:15,029
completely United and but was also

1567
01:06:19,999 --> 01:06:17,430
completely excessive and couldn't but

1568
01:06:22,430 --> 01:06:20,009
help sort of overspill itself and over

1569
01:06:25,279 --> 01:06:22,440
spilled itself in in ripples as a word

1570
01:06:27,769 --> 01:06:25,289
that became the universe as we know it

1571
01:06:29,569 --> 01:06:27,779
but the trouble with that was that the

1572
01:06:32,329 --> 01:06:29,579
further that these ripples moved away

1573
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:32,339
from the one and the more and they lost

1574
01:06:37,279 --> 01:06:33,930
touch with the one as well

1575
01:06:39,140 --> 01:06:37,289
and so things like evil and so on start

1576
01:06:40,730 --> 01:06:39,150
to appear a sense of alienation a sense

1577
01:06:43,099 --> 01:06:40,740
of fullness of your lights start to

1578
01:06:45,470 --> 01:06:43,109
appear and that the great story is of

1579
01:06:48,380 --> 01:06:45,480
the one reaching out back in and

1580
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:48,390
gathering us as it were all to return

1581
01:06:54,079 --> 01:06:52,170
but with this amazing diversity that's

1582
01:06:56,240 --> 01:06:54,089
going to return as well and so it's not

1583
01:06:58,730 --> 01:06:56,250
just as a return to the old state and

1584
01:07:00,470 --> 01:06:58,740
it's this spiral up and so that we will

1585
01:07:02,990 --> 01:07:00,480
know what the particular and the

1586
01:07:04,849 --> 01:07:03,000
universal is mirrored together will know

1587
01:07:07,609 --> 01:07:04,859
this non-dual consciousness you might

1588
01:07:09,769 --> 01:07:07,619
stay and so there's a tremendous gain as

1589
01:07:12,410 --> 01:07:09,779
well as all the struggle and suffering

1590
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:12,420
that goes on on the way oh that's that's

1591
01:07:16,700 --> 01:07:14,130
my best sense of a kind of the really

1592
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:16,710
big story a really big spiritual story

1593
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:19,650
and that tries to understand why there's

1594
01:07:22,279 --> 01:07:20,970
all this mess all the way why there's

1595
01:07:23,690 --> 01:07:22,289
all this struggle why there's all these

1596
01:07:25,839 --> 01:07:23,700
debates what's that what's that all

1597
01:07:32,359 --> 01:07:29,779
awesome Edie you've been you've been

1598
01:07:36,170 --> 01:07:32,369
extremely open as I knew you would be

1599
01:07:38,420 --> 01:07:36,180
we're jumping way off but not really

1600
01:07:40,370 --> 01:07:38,430
from this new book that people are going

1601
01:07:43,099 --> 01:07:40,380
to want to check out and again you can

1602
01:07:45,589 --> 01:07:43,109
pre-order right now on Amazon a secret

1603
01:07:48,470 --> 01:07:45,599
history of Christianity and we're

1604
01:07:51,620 --> 01:07:48,480
getting into I think some of the

1605
01:07:53,450 --> 01:07:51,630
thinking that went into and evolved on

1606
01:07:55,460 --> 01:07:53,460
your part before writing this book so

1607
01:07:57,339 --> 01:07:55,470
I'm going to really stretch you on this

1608
01:08:00,620 --> 01:07:57,349
last one because I think it relates to

1609
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:00,630
your cosmology that you were just laying

1610
01:08:05,299 --> 01:08:02,970
out there and it's really a hot-button

1611
01:08:07,190 --> 01:08:05,309
issue for me and that is ET

1612
01:08:09,170 --> 01:08:07,200
consciousness and you already alluded to

1613
01:08:13,010 --> 01:08:09,180
jeff kraebel who's open to the idea of

1614
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:13,020
ufos and to me it's like oh boy it's

1615
01:08:19,249 --> 01:08:15,690
another one of those materialism is

1616
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:19,259
baloney things it's like ET is just a

1617
01:08:25,280 --> 01:08:22,130
reality so many people haven't even

1618
01:08:29,539 --> 01:08:25,290
understood that this is now disclosed

1619
01:08:31,910 --> 01:08:29,549
right December 2017 new york times

1620
01:08:36,079 --> 01:08:31,920
defense department comes out and says

1621
01:08:40,220 --> 01:08:36,089
yes it's real we have we have it we have

1622
01:08:41,570 --> 01:08:40,230
it here are the most senior officials in

1623
01:08:45,019 --> 01:08:41,580
the military and they'll tell you all

1624
01:08:47,519 --> 01:08:45,029
these accounts here are our videos of ET

1625
01:08:49,620 --> 01:08:47,529
i interviewed kevin day who

1626
01:08:52,379 --> 01:08:49,630
was one of the people in that video

1627
01:08:54,269 --> 01:08:52,389
responsible for that video that had I

1628
01:08:57,629 --> 01:08:54,279
shouldn't say responsible for the video

1629
01:08:59,760 --> 01:08:57,639
he was on board one of the ships and he

1630
01:09:02,459 --> 01:08:59,770
was like the top gun controller of all

1631
01:09:06,450 --> 01:09:02,469
the radar and other information that led

1632
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:06,460
the pilots to go encounter the et or the

1633
01:09:12,599 --> 01:09:10,210
UFO and he had a direct experience by

1634
01:09:15,209 --> 01:09:12,609
going up on deck and seeing it all this

1635
01:09:18,089 --> 01:09:15,219
is a backdrop to saying to kind of

1636
01:09:21,779 --> 01:09:18,099
justify that I would even put up on the

1637
01:09:24,539 --> 01:09:21,789
screen et consciousness know the

1638
01:09:25,079 --> 01:09:24,549
absurdity is that we can't talk about

1639
01:09:31,740 --> 01:09:25,089
this

1640
01:09:36,180 --> 01:09:31,750
we have to fully understand it you know

1641
01:09:38,849 --> 01:09:36,190
I just talked to Ray Hernandez who has

1642
01:09:41,459 --> 01:09:38,859
to be credited with saying okay this is

1643
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:41,469
a reality let's go out and do some

1644
01:09:49,430 --> 01:09:44,250
social science work do a professional

1645
01:09:51,930 --> 01:09:49,440
scientific survey which he did with dr.

1646
01:09:54,899 --> 01:09:51,940
olio sprinkle I think is maybe the only

1647
01:09:57,720 --> 01:09:54,909
senior PhDs from Harvard and from other

1648
01:10:01,770 --> 01:09:57,730
places again did a professional survey

1649
01:10:05,339 --> 01:10:01,780
of what these experiences are and so I

1650
01:10:09,330 --> 01:10:05,349
want to bring that on the table without

1651
01:10:13,169 --> 01:10:09,340
a chuckle without a grin and just say we

1652
01:10:16,830 --> 01:10:13,179
have to understand what this means in

1653
01:10:19,979 --> 01:10:16,840
terms of this extended consciousness as

1654
01:10:23,279 --> 01:10:19,989
it relates to these other non-human

1655
01:10:27,089 --> 01:10:23,289
intelligences that seem to have a lot to

1656
01:10:29,580 --> 01:10:27,099
do or a lot to say about this extended

1657
01:10:31,830 --> 01:10:29,590
realm they're doing a screening of our

1658
01:10:33,839 --> 01:10:31,840
memories they're doing telepathy and the

1659
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:33,849
way that you so beautifully talked about

1660
01:10:38,100 --> 01:10:35,770
in Elizabeth's near-death experience

1661
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:38,110
they seem in some strange way like

1662
01:10:42,299 --> 01:10:40,090
you're alluding to crippled that that

1663
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:42,309
cry pool is kind of reaching for and

1664
01:10:46,740 --> 01:10:44,050
others Jacques Vallee and others are

1665
01:10:49,529 --> 01:10:46,750
reaching for is like wow these extended

1666
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:49,539
realms seem to be somehow related I

1667
01:10:53,879 --> 01:10:51,610
think that's a misstep I don't think

1668
01:10:56,450 --> 01:10:53,889
we're ready to say they're related I

1669
01:10:59,430 --> 01:10:56,460
think the main message is that our

1670
01:11:00,800 --> 01:10:59,440
reality what we're calling reality over

1671
01:11:03,700 --> 01:11:00,810
here

1672
01:11:07,370 --> 01:11:03,710
is for lack of a better term a lesser

1673
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:07,380
reality and we're viewing everything in

1674
01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:10,650
a hamstrung way because we're looking at

1675
01:11:18,050 --> 01:11:14,730
it from the lesser reality so let's talk

1676
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:18,060
about ET consciousness in I know you've

1677
01:11:22,180 --> 01:11:20,370
thought about it a little what are you

1678
01:11:24,770 --> 01:11:22,190
what are your thoughts how is this

1679
01:11:28,100 --> 01:11:24,780
relevant and how should it be relevant

1680
01:11:29,780 --> 01:11:28,110
for someone who's trying to kind of

1681
01:11:33,470 --> 01:11:29,790
understand things from this deeper

1682
01:11:37,430 --> 01:11:33,480
spiritual perspective well the thought

1683
01:11:39,650 --> 01:11:37,440
that comes to mind with a film arrival I

1684
01:11:41,690 --> 01:11:39,660
didn't if you saw the film arrival but I

1685
01:11:44,660 --> 01:11:41,700
thought it was just amazingly prophetic

1686
01:11:46,870 --> 01:11:44,670
film because for me it captured

1687
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:46,880
something of what it might be like to

1688
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:51,210
encounter an intelligent consciousness

1689
01:11:56,660 --> 01:11:53,610
from another place that's you know as a

1690
01:11:58,520 --> 01:11:56,670
word far superior to our own and what

1691
01:12:02,090 --> 01:11:58,530
that might be like you know so the film

1692
01:12:04,670 --> 01:12:02,100
in the film the et sort of globes appear

1693
01:12:07,310 --> 01:12:04,680
they're not Globes long shapes almond

1694
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:07,320
shapes in the sky and the military kind

1695
01:12:13,550 --> 01:12:10,650
of put up cordons around them and the

1696
01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:13,560
the world goes into meltdown and the

1697
01:12:17,840 --> 01:12:15,090
story focuses on this one scientist

1698
01:12:21,350 --> 01:12:17,850
who's trying to learn to speak to to the

1699
01:12:23,300 --> 01:12:21,360
in to the et and what she learns is that

1700
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:23,310
they're trying to show her something and

1701
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:25,050
then particularly trying to show her

1702
01:12:29,240 --> 01:12:26,850
something about the nature of time and

1703
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:29,250
that as she learns their language her

1704
01:12:33,830 --> 01:12:31,770
consciousness itself shifts and she

1705
01:12:36,980 --> 01:12:33,840
realizes that she was already caught up

1706
01:12:39,230 --> 01:12:36,990
in a set of experiences the seem like

1707
01:12:41,480 --> 01:12:39,240
precognitive dreams or flashbacks

1708
01:12:43,340 --> 01:12:41,490
flash-forward she wasn't sure and but

1709
01:12:46,820 --> 01:12:43,350
gradually she puts it together Fuger

1710
01:12:49,160 --> 01:12:46,830
encounters with the et and her you know

1711
01:12:51,380 --> 01:12:49,170
her her own consciousness massively

1712
01:12:53,150 --> 01:12:51,390
expands because of the encounters with

1713
01:12:55,730 --> 01:12:53,160
it with the et and I thought it

1714
01:13:00,950 --> 01:12:55,740
beautifully prophetic because I think if

1715
01:13:02,870 --> 01:13:00,960
we undo less covertly have encounters

1716
01:13:05,210 --> 01:13:02,880
with extraterrestrials at some point

1717
01:13:07,340 --> 01:13:05,220
it's very likely that it's going to be

1718
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:07,350
something like that and that the way we

1719
01:13:11,030 --> 01:13:08,970
talk about time the way we talk about

1720
01:13:14,270 --> 01:13:11,040
beauty the way we talk about mathematics

1721
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:14,280
all these ways that we try and formalize

1722
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:15,090
our own in

1723
01:13:18,560 --> 01:13:16,890
our intensive engagement with the

1724
01:13:20,660 --> 01:13:18,570
world's our own consciousness it's gonna

1725
01:13:23,450 --> 01:13:20,670
be massively challenged but I guess

1726
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:23,460
massively expanded as well because to

1727
01:13:27,350 --> 01:13:25,050
get here those ETS are going to have to

1728
01:13:30,020 --> 01:13:27,360
have a beautiful further down the line

1729
01:13:33,200 --> 01:13:30,030
you might say than we are and so it's

1730
01:13:34,490 --> 01:13:33,210
gonna be probably terrifying and deeply

1731
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:34,500
unsettling as these things always are

1732
01:13:39,350 --> 01:13:37,170
but with luck maybe even the film's like

1733
01:13:41,630 --> 01:13:39,360
a rival will prepare us for that much

1734
01:13:43,570 --> 01:13:41,640
much more well what if we're already

1735
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:43,580
there I mean that to me is the

1736
01:13:48,050 --> 01:13:45,690
overwhelming evidence we're already

1737
01:13:50,570 --> 01:13:48,060
there tens of thousands hundreds of

1738
01:13:53,090 --> 01:13:50,580
thousands millions of people have had

1739
01:13:54,710 --> 01:13:53,100
encounter experiences they haven't been

1740
01:13:59,240 --> 01:13:54,720
allowed to talk about it because there

1741
01:14:02,150 --> 01:13:59,250
is this incredible truth embargo I hate

1742
01:14:03,830 --> 01:14:02,160
that term but it kind of fits on talking

1743
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:03,840
about these accounts you know was

1744
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:06,210
referencing a minute ago the the book by

1745
01:14:10,010 --> 01:14:08,130
Rey Hernandez again so you go out you

1746
01:14:12,410 --> 01:14:10,020
just start collecting data and people

1747
01:14:15,860 --> 01:14:12,420
start telling you yes this encounter

1748
01:14:18,740 --> 01:14:15,870
that encounter generational you know

1749
01:14:20,930 --> 01:14:18,750
across multiple witnesses and I love

1750
01:14:23,450 --> 01:14:20,940
what you're saying in a sense but I'm

1751
01:14:25,820 --> 01:14:23,460
hoping you can connect this with the

1752
01:14:28,430 --> 01:14:25,830
book one and the Christian experience

1753
01:14:30,260 --> 01:14:28,440
the Christ consciousness experience why

1754
01:14:33,260 --> 01:14:30,270
isn't that showing up in the Christ

1755
01:14:35,540 --> 01:14:33,270
consciousness experience or how is it

1756
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:35,550
showing up and I think I'd also like to

1757
01:14:41,810 --> 01:14:38,370
connect it with this idea of evolution

1758
01:14:44,390 --> 01:14:41,820
because ET is fundamentally challenging

1759
01:14:47,360 --> 01:14:44,400
our understanding of the evolutionary

1760
01:14:50,060 --> 01:14:47,370
timeline and their role in that timeline

1761
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:50,070
in the past and their role in that

1762
01:14:56,600 --> 01:14:52,770
timeline in the future and again this

1763
01:14:59,360 --> 01:14:56,610
isn't a what-if if it happens kind of

1764
01:15:02,630 --> 01:14:59,370
thing that what the data is telling us

1765
01:15:06,470 --> 01:15:02,640
is it has already happened and we're

1766
01:15:08,090 --> 01:15:06,480
just not willing to look so I guess my

1767
01:15:10,910 --> 01:15:08,100
understanding of that would be the what

1768
01:15:13,430 --> 01:15:10,920
has already happened is caught up with

1769
01:15:15,710 --> 01:15:13,440
this struggle that people have to make

1770
01:15:17,420 --> 01:15:15,720
sense that what's happens and that's not

1771
01:15:19,850 --> 01:15:17,430
just about as a word pinning down the

1772
01:15:22,580 --> 01:15:19,860
facts because I think that encountering

1773
01:15:24,830 --> 01:15:22,590
such threats or is also to encounter a

1774
01:15:26,930 --> 01:15:24,840
kind of consciousness that's not

1775
01:15:28,549 --> 01:15:26,940
immediate and every day the director

1776
01:15:31,729 --> 01:15:28,559
seems to suggest that as well

1777
01:15:34,069 --> 01:15:31,739
so it's this very early stage which can

1778
01:15:35,810 --> 01:15:34,079
sound sometimes a bit like madness and

1779
01:15:37,819 --> 01:15:35,820
some sense sometimes sound a bit like a

1780
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:37,829
transcendent experience you know that's

1781
01:15:41,689 --> 01:15:39,210
that's what it's like when our own

1782
01:15:44,839 --> 01:15:41,699
consciousness is challenged and so this

1783
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:44,849
is a lot of that going on and but as it

1784
01:15:48,890 --> 01:15:46,530
develops so maybe as it becomes more

1785
01:15:50,569 --> 01:15:48,900
overt and less covert and people are

1786
01:15:53,209 --> 01:15:50,579
able to talk about it and the

1787
01:15:55,850 --> 01:15:53,219
researchers are able to unpack it that

1788
01:15:57,290 --> 01:15:55,860
stage more it'll be very interesting for

1789
01:16:00,229 --> 01:15:57,300
me and maybe it will be a challenge for

1790
01:16:02,990 --> 01:16:00,239
me as well to see whether for example I

1791
01:16:05,270 --> 01:16:03,000
don't think that et is going to talk

1792
01:16:07,399 --> 01:16:05,280
about Christ you know with with a

1793
01:16:09,649 --> 01:16:07,409
capital C as it were but maybe they'll

1794
01:16:12,470 --> 01:16:09,659
all talk about things that are like the

1795
01:16:15,049 --> 01:16:12,480
law goes which is this the more mystical

1796
01:16:17,419 --> 01:16:15,059
principle this behind the crisis that

1797
01:16:19,399 --> 01:16:17,429
Christians relate to and the more Goss

1798
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:19,409
is this underlying principle this

1799
01:16:25,040 --> 01:16:22,050
tendency took order and - rhythm -

1800
01:16:27,140 --> 01:16:25,050
pattern - Direction mean on the one hand

1801
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:27,150
it creates a sense that there's some

1802
01:16:31,399 --> 01:16:29,610
sort of rationality and there cosmos in

1803
01:16:34,040 --> 01:16:31,409
another way and it's much more like a

1804
01:16:35,689 --> 01:16:34,050
pulse of life than a draw a tendency and

1805
01:16:38,149 --> 01:16:35,699
attraction towards that which is

1806
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:38,159
beautiful and good and so you know if

1807
01:16:44,209 --> 01:16:41,489
the ETA encounters develop and it turns

1808
01:16:47,089 --> 01:16:44,219
out that our consciousness can match in

1809
01:16:50,540 --> 01:16:47,099
some way that sense that they have - and

1810
01:16:52,430 --> 01:16:50,550
the universe does have a meaning to put

1811
01:16:53,959 --> 01:16:52,440
it no more generally than that and

1812
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:53,969
that's going to be fascinating because

1813
01:16:58,339 --> 01:16:55,730
that will be something which our

1814
01:17:00,919 --> 01:16:58,349
ancestors and ourselves have detected

1815
01:17:03,319 --> 01:17:00,929
and had tried to articulate and if that

1816
01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:03,329
matches up with what they're telling us

1817
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:05,489
as well then that will be you know

1818
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:08,250
tremendous confirmation let alone the

1819
01:17:11,930 --> 01:17:09,449
next steps of the addition of

1820
01:17:15,020 --> 01:17:11,940
consciousness so here's what the data is

1821
01:17:18,020 --> 01:17:15,030
telling me here's my hunch at this point

1822
01:17:19,549 --> 01:17:18,030
and I can't totally back this up there

1823
01:17:22,279 --> 01:17:19,559
are these multiple extended

1824
01:17:24,709 --> 01:17:22,289
consciousness realms and they are the

1825
01:17:27,470 --> 01:17:24,719
greater reality and we will always be

1826
01:17:29,930 --> 01:17:27,480
limited from our reality because it's a

1827
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:29,940
lesser reality just like people that go

1828
01:17:34,010 --> 01:17:32,010
and have the information downloads in

1829
01:17:36,379 --> 01:17:34,020
these extended realms and then return

1830
01:17:39,229 --> 01:17:36,389
and say when I was onboard the ship I

1831
01:17:40,910 --> 01:17:39,239
knew everything now I don't people have

1832
01:17:42,330 --> 01:17:40,920
a near-death experience and they say I

1833
01:17:45,020 --> 01:17:42,340
talked to God before

1834
01:17:49,470 --> 01:17:45,030
question can even be asked it was in my

1835
01:17:52,050 --> 01:17:49,480
in my knowledge in my I knew it but when

1836
01:17:55,589 --> 01:17:52,060
I came back it was gone so again a

1837
01:17:57,750 --> 01:17:55,599
lesser reality down here what troubles

1838
01:18:00,540 --> 01:17:57,760
me and what I work on is the idea that

1839
01:18:03,990 --> 01:18:00,550
the et consciousness is somehow

1840
01:18:06,419 --> 01:18:04,000
fundamentally different than the realms

1841
01:18:09,180 --> 01:18:06,429
of consciousness described as Christ

1842
01:18:11,669 --> 01:18:09,190
consciousness and described as the NDE

1843
01:18:15,419 --> 01:18:11,679
consciousness and that there may be this

1844
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:15,429
pure form of truly a god-like

1845
01:18:20,970 --> 01:18:18,730
consciousness if you will and there may

1846
01:18:23,879 --> 01:18:20,980
be people who are playing in the gray

1847
01:18:27,270 --> 01:18:23,889
zone just like they do on this world and

1848
01:18:30,450 --> 01:18:27,280
are into deception trickster or just

1849
01:18:34,050 --> 01:18:30,460
evolving towards something and something

1850
01:18:39,270 --> 01:18:34,060
greater or something lesser and that we

1851
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:39,280
may be mistaken those and again my gripe

1852
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:41,770
or my complaint with Jeff is

1853
01:18:46,649 --> 01:18:44,770
when we get so excited by the extended

1854
01:18:48,780 --> 01:18:46,659
consciousness realms that we say oh my

1855
01:18:51,510 --> 01:18:48,790
gosh isn't it exciting how they all the

1856
01:18:54,629 --> 01:18:51,520
paranormal is is paranormal it all fits

1857
01:18:56,970 --> 01:18:54,639
together maybe not you know maybe there

1858
01:18:59,550 --> 01:18:56,980
is an aspect of this that stands apart

1859
01:19:01,740 --> 01:18:59,560
and I don't know if you've thought about

1860
01:19:06,959 --> 01:19:01,750
that or if you have any ideas along the

1861
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:06,969
lines of deception and do we is Christ

1862
01:19:12,240 --> 01:19:09,730
consciousness does it stand apart from

1863
01:19:14,100 --> 01:19:12,250
these other extended consciousness

1864
01:19:15,950 --> 01:19:14,110
realms including shamanic realms or

1865
01:19:19,260 --> 01:19:15,960
whatever you want to include in there

1866
01:19:21,419 --> 01:19:19,270
well it's a big question again but maybe

1867
01:19:23,629 --> 01:19:21,429
just to throw in some thoughts from what

1868
01:19:26,040 --> 01:19:23,639
I've got from Dante's Divine Comedy

1869
01:19:28,709 --> 01:19:26,050
because if he goes through these you

1870
01:19:32,010 --> 01:19:28,719
know three realms broadly speaking he'll

1871
01:19:34,890 --> 01:19:32,020
purgatory and paradise and in Herald was

1872
01:19:37,050 --> 01:19:34,900
lost of trickster stuff going on there's

1873
01:19:39,510 --> 01:19:37,060
actual sort of demons that he encounters

1874
01:19:40,950 --> 01:19:39,520
but even the souls that he encounters

1875
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:40,960
down there he learns that actually

1876
01:19:44,850 --> 01:19:42,610
they're telling him one thing but

1877
01:19:46,260 --> 01:19:44,860
they're fooling him in another way as

1878
01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:46,270
well and it's it's

1879
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:49,090
as he learns to discern that and that

1880
01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:51,610
he's able then to move in the story to

1881
01:19:55,600 --> 01:19:53,530
the next level which is the purgatorial

1882
01:19:58,120 --> 01:19:55,610
level which is when as a

1883
01:20:00,129 --> 01:19:58,130
he works much more on his own the

1884
01:20:02,620 --> 01:20:00,139
purification if you like of his own and

1885
01:20:05,830 --> 01:20:02,630
capacities to see and to understand and

1886
01:20:07,870 --> 01:20:05,840
to discern and then when that is sort of

1887
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:07,880
good enough and he's able to move into

1888
01:20:12,160 --> 01:20:09,770
the paradise but it doesn't stop in

1889
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:12,170
paradise it's either going up through

1890
01:20:17,649 --> 01:20:13,850
the different spheres of paradise for

1891
01:20:19,270 --> 01:20:17,659
Dante is a constant process of letting

1892
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:19,280
go what he thought had been the case

1893
01:20:23,290 --> 01:20:21,170
before or seeing it was a pale

1894
01:20:26,310 --> 01:20:23,300
reflection just the kind of shadow or a

1895
01:20:30,070 --> 01:20:26,320
working model of things in order to rise

1896
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:30,080
closer and closer to the divine and I

1897
01:20:33,820 --> 01:20:31,850
don't know how long that model will not

1898
01:20:36,700 --> 01:20:33,830
ask but it seems to me to be a pretty

1899
01:20:38,229 --> 01:20:36,710
good model actually that you know we we

1900
01:20:39,609 --> 01:20:38,239
definitely we should be aware of the

1901
01:20:40,629 --> 01:20:39,619
tricksters which should be aware of

1902
01:20:43,359 --> 01:20:40,639
those who are in the gray zone

1903
01:20:46,180 --> 01:20:43,369
it's about discerning I'm about

1904
01:20:49,240 --> 01:20:46,190
cultivating ourselves through virtues

1905
01:20:51,820 --> 01:20:49,250
and and so on and also that we can see

1906
01:20:53,919 --> 01:20:51,830
facing off is facing our struggles you

1907
01:20:56,050 --> 01:20:53,929
know that we can move up these different

1908
01:20:57,939 --> 01:20:56,060
realms but even when we're in the in the

1909
01:21:00,939 --> 01:20:57,949
sort of transcendent realm I think that

1910
01:21:03,129 --> 01:21:00,949
process continues still and it will be a

1911
01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:03,139
constant process of letting go and being

1912
01:21:08,500 --> 01:21:06,290
open to what's new but step by step you

1913
01:21:10,750 --> 01:21:08,510
bother sort of be able to rise - it's

1914
01:21:13,030 --> 01:21:10,760
not just I don't think sort of magic

1915
01:21:14,649 --> 01:21:13,040
well maybe if it is magic suddenly

1916
01:21:15,729 --> 01:21:14,659
you're the put the point that's when

1917
01:21:17,709 --> 01:21:15,739
you're not going to be able to take it

1918
01:21:19,300 --> 01:21:17,719
in at all that's the optimum moment

1919
01:21:21,970 --> 01:21:19,310
where we can you come back dandy again

1920
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:21,980
you think what was that I can't begin to

1921
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:23,810
talk about it at all

1922
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:25,130
you know that's that's the moment of

1923
01:21:30,370 --> 01:21:27,650
forgetting the download just empties a

1924
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:30,380
habit that was awesome I really like

1925
01:21:35,669 --> 01:21:33,650
that so mark I really appreciate all

1926
01:21:38,140 --> 01:21:35,679
that I think that's very very

1927
01:21:40,570 --> 01:21:38,150
interesting to me and I think you're

1928
01:21:42,959 --> 01:21:40,580
right on so many points but I'll just

1929
01:21:46,300 --> 01:21:42,969
leave it sit there without recapping

1930
01:21:48,729 --> 01:21:46,310
again tell us what else is going on with

1931
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:48,739
a secret history of Christianity again

1932
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:51,770
out in August is that right for us here

1933
01:21:54,850 --> 01:21:53,810
the US will be able to buy it and what

1934
01:21:58,359 --> 01:21:54,860
else is going on with your other

1935
01:22:00,580 --> 01:21:58,369
projects you do tremendous work in terms

1936
01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:00,590
of speaking engagements all around the

1937
01:22:05,890 --> 01:22:04,250
UK what's what else is on your plate and

1938
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:05,900
what people might find interesting about

1939
01:22:11,110 --> 01:22:08,930
what you're doing yeah thanks

1940
01:22:13,030 --> 01:22:11,120
at the end of August and there's quite a

1941
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:13,040
lot of stuff on my own website Marvin

1942
01:22:16,780 --> 01:22:15,170
and calm I've made some little short

1943
01:22:19,690 --> 01:22:16,790
films as well there just to try and get

1944
01:22:22,750 --> 01:22:19,700
the basic ideas in Barfield across which

1945
01:22:26,710 --> 01:22:22,760
these evolutionary ideas a bit on Rudolf

1946
01:22:28,750 --> 01:22:26,720
Steiner as well I continue to do the

1947
01:22:31,710 --> 01:22:28,760
discussions with Rupert Rupert Sheldrake

1948
01:22:34,810 --> 01:22:31,720
we've got more of those coming up and

1949
01:22:36,370 --> 01:22:34,820
you know very much in the same domain as

1950
01:22:38,320 --> 01:22:36,380
you I think trying to develop the

1951
01:22:39,820 --> 01:22:38,330
conversation because I think it's only

1952
01:22:41,380 --> 01:22:39,830
when we have these wrestling's with

1953
01:22:43,660 --> 01:22:41,390
words when we try and look at the data

1954
01:22:46,030 --> 01:22:43,670
and we try and look at what older texts

1955
01:22:48,130 --> 01:22:46,040
can tell us can illuminate and also

1956
01:22:49,930 --> 01:22:48,140
reflect on our own experience you know

1957
01:22:53,230 --> 01:22:49,940
this is very much the cutting edge of

1958
01:22:54,310 --> 01:22:53,240
witnesses of all that this spiritual

1959
01:22:56,650 --> 01:22:54,320
development and this trying to

1960
01:22:58,570 --> 01:22:56,660
understand extended consciousness and do

1961
01:23:00,610 --> 01:22:58,580
not be trapped you know as you put it so

1962
01:23:02,620 --> 01:23:00,620
well in the bad protocol robot model and

1963
01:23:04,510 --> 01:23:02,630
so you know I really appreciate that all

1964
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:04,520
you do and the conversations that you

1965
01:23:10,480 --> 01:23:06,770
spark as well and I think it's all part

1966
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:10,490
of this whole effort to try and you know

1967
01:23:14,110 --> 01:23:11,930
to expand things to grow our

1968
01:23:17,350 --> 01:23:14,120
imaginations that's a bill to the ceilin

1969
01:23:20,500 --> 01:23:17,360
Seymour well terrific it's certainly

1970
01:23:22,060 --> 01:23:20,510
been a incredible joy for me to have

1971
01:23:25,090 --> 01:23:22,070
these kind of conversations because

1972
01:23:27,340 --> 01:23:25,100
they're they're few and far between and

1973
01:23:29,230 --> 01:23:27,350
and I just love to have them it's been

1974
01:23:32,110 --> 01:23:29,240
great having around thanks so much for

1975
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:32,120
joining me on sceptical thanks so much

1976
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:34,010
to Marc for joining me today on skeptic

1977
01:23:37,630 --> 01:23:35,810
Oh check out his book check out his

1978
01:23:39,760 --> 01:23:37,640
website they'll be links to that in the

1979
01:23:41,650 --> 01:23:39,770
show notes and it allow me to tee up one

1980
01:23:43,930 --> 01:23:41,660
question for this interview if you'd

1981
01:23:46,540 --> 01:23:43,940
like to join me on The Skeptical forum

1982
01:23:50,110 --> 01:23:46,550
and discuss it I will be there and I'll

1983
01:23:52,780 --> 01:23:50,120
be happy and delighted actually if you

1984
01:23:54,970 --> 01:23:52,790
would join me and other folks and hash

1985
01:23:59,080 --> 01:23:54,980
out this question the question I have to

1986
01:24:02,500 --> 01:23:59,090
pick on is do you think there has been

1987
01:24:05,140 --> 01:24:02,510
an evolution of consciousness and do you

1988
01:24:09,090 --> 01:24:05,150
think it's tied to Christianity is it

1989
01:24:12,550 --> 01:24:09,100
pivotal on that 2000 year ago date as

1990
01:24:14,380 --> 01:24:12,560
Marc suggests I think you already know

1991
01:24:16,930 --> 01:24:14,390
my opinion but I'd love to hear your

1992
01:24:19,990 --> 01:24:16,940
thoughts again the place to do it is

1993
01:24:21,790 --> 01:24:20,000
through this sceptical forum as always

1994
01:24:22,389 --> 01:24:21,800
be sure to check out the skeptic Oh

1995
01:24:24,759 --> 01:24:22,399
website

1996
01:24:29,109 --> 01:24:24,769
where you can find over 400 interviews

1997
01:24:31,899 --> 01:24:29,119
available for free for download to enjoy

1998
01:24:34,419 --> 01:24:31,909
and share as you see fit well that's

1999
01:24:36,279 --> 01:24:34,429
going to do it for this episode do stick

2000
01:24:39,699 --> 01:24:36,289
around I have some good ones coming up

2001
01:24:41,740 --> 01:24:39,709
until next time take care and bye for